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I will be at every game and I want to be 100% wrong, but I'm not bullish about this year, nor the direction of the hoops program in general. Been that way for a couple years and hoping I'm dead wrong and justify why I'm not a college hoops CEO. *2 years of Simmons playing 40 minutes with no suitable backup, we don't recruit a PG, he leaves and we have no experience ready when he "blindsides" us? *Campbell graduates and that's the big we have ready? *we save a scholarship for what? *we have this niche recruiting philosophy (Edited) *we have too much dead weight on the bench *we're not athletic and have some very limited guys on the roster (ie: the recruiting philosophy of the administration) Yet still tonight, they totally exceeded my expectations. I still think we're more than JC away from a full deck, but great effort. Not often am I a fairweathored OHIO fan, but I was on this trip. I planned on coming, it was getting tight family/work-wise making it happen for a number of reason and watching the Alabama A&M sent me over the top and I stayed home. You made the most of the shorthanded deck you had and fought hard. I expect little this season, but I hope tonight proves that I'm 100% wrong! Last Edited: 11/17/2017 10:27:12 AM by Chicken George Back to Top shabamon General User Member Since: 11/17/2006 Location: Cincinnati Post Count: 6,102 Status: Offline     RE: Considerng my expectations, A+ effort!    Posted: 11/16/2017 7:43:50 PM  Agreed. I ain't mad at the effort at all. Back to Top allen General User Member Since: 1/24/2006 Post Count: 4,630 Status: Offline     RE: Considerng my expectations, A+ effort!    Posted: 11/16/2017 8:15:33 PM  Chicken George wrote: Let me be 100% transparent. I will be at every game and I want to be 100% wrong, but I'm not bullish about this year, nor the direction of the hoops program in general. Been that way for a couple years and hoping I'm dead wrong and justify why I'm not a college hoops CEO. *2 years of Simmons playing 40 minutes with no suitable backup, we don't recruit a PG, he leaves and we have no experience ready when he "blindsides" us? *Campbell graduates and that's the big we have ready? *we save a scholarship for what? *we have this niche recruiting philosophy where when the goings good you look like a genius recruiting the guy who has no DI offers, but when it's not going great you look like a .... *we have too much dead weight on the bench *we're not athletic and have some very limited guys on the roster (ie: the recruiting philosophy of the administration) Yet still tonight, they totally exceeded my expectations. I still think we're more than JC away from a full deck, but great effort. Not often am I a fairweathored OHIO fan, but I was on this trip. I planned on coming, it was getting tight family/work-wise making it happen for a number of reason and watching the Alabama A&M sent me over the top and I stayed home. You made the most of the shorthanded deck you had and fought hard. I expect little this season, but I hope tonight proves that I'm 100% wrong! The left open scholly was crazy to me as well. Mickle has performed way beyond my expectations and Block has expanded his game. Kirk was a good catch. We have kind of lucked up. We need to recruit a little bit better. The MAC is so weak, so this would be the year to sneak into the tounament. Let's see what happens. Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes Back to Top Kevin Finnegan General User Member Since: 2/4/2005 Location: Rockton, IL Post Count: 1,084 Status: Offline     RE: Considerng my expectations, A+ effort!    Posted: 11/16/2017 10:03:11 PM  Hard to say we should be recruiting much better than we have. Realize that we have Jason Carter, who many of us thought was a possible MAC POY candidate heading into the season. He was recruited by Saul. His injury has nothing to do with the recruiting. Then, this year, we have: AJ Gareri, who was a 3 star recruit with an offer from Kent State. Teyvion Kirk, who had offers from at least 19 other DI schools, including Duquesne, Drake, Southern Illinois, Kent State, and Miami. Zach Butler, who had offers from at least 5 other DI schools, including UNC Charlotte. Bennett Vander Plas, who had offers from at least 10 other DI schools, including Memphis, Milwaukee, Bucknell, Penn. Now, two of these guys are down right now, so we don't know what we have. But there's definitely potential with this class. Back to Top shabamon General User Member Since: 11/17/2006 Location: Cincinnati Post Count: 6,102 Status: Offline     RE: Considerng my expectations, A+ effort!    Posted: 11/16/2017 10:10:20 PM  It's interesting that Gareri had only one other offer despite being ranked so respectively among last year's senior class in Ohio. I believe Dartis had few offers as well, and he was also a 3-star. Back to Top Jeff McKinney Moderator Member Since: 11/12/2004 Post Count: 6,043 Status: Offline     RE: Considerng my expectations, A+ effort!    Posted: 11/16/2017 11:57:59 PM  Chicken...re your comments about post players...you know we had Carter out, and two freshmen OUT who are considered serviceable post players even at this point in their careers. So I'm not seeing a recruiting shortfall there. Re PG, as it has turned out, it would have been better to have had our future PG lined up a year earlier, but the Simmons departure was unexpected . The Kirk signing is a very good one, so we have a PG in the making. And Zach Butler will be OK eventually. Back to Top Jeff McKinney Moderator Member Since: 11/12/2004 Post Count: 6,043 Status: Offline     RE: Considerng my expectations, A+ effort!    Posted: 11/17/2017 12:01:18 AM  Finn...re Gareri, I think he had other offers. Bowling Green was one. And though I can't document it, word is that Akron got involved late. Back to Top The Optimist General User Member Since: 3/16/2007 Location: CLE Post Count: 5,552 Status: Offline     RE: Considerng my expectations, A+ effort!    Posted: 11/17/2017 12:26:59 AM  I've got no problem if people disagree with my "green kool-aid" outlook for this season but this roster is not nearly as "shorthanded" as some imagine. Many of the issues mentioned about the roster makeup could have been (and often were) echoed about rosters in years past prior to Saul. *Rodney Culvar transferred after playing some as a freshman but not quite getting the minutes he wanted. The same happened with Ryan Taylor, TyQuane Goard and Jay Kinney before him. *Plenty of guys who were called "dead weight" and "wasted space" on our bench in the past: Ethan Jacobs, Kadeem Green, Chandler Thomas, Wadly and many more. Khari Harley was a Christian recruit. Even guys who had pretty nice Senior years for us like KVK and Asown Sayles took heat. That doesn't even began to scratch into some of the guys on those TOS teams. 2011-2012 We had 9 players average 10+ minutes per game 2016-2017 We had 9 players average 10+ minutes per game *Campbell graduates and we have a sophomore post player returning who was Freshman All-MAC last year. *If DJ Cooper "blindsides" Ohio after our Sweet 16 run his Junior season and transfers to Baylor (as it was rumored) we all would've been crushed. The only other Point Guard returning the next season was Stevie Taylor who had averaged only 10 minutes the year prior. ... The main difference compared to past years is our style of play under Saul. Christian, Groce, O'Shea and Hunter teams each had a unique look and feel but each of those coaches definitely placed more of a priority on raw athleticism than Saul does. There's a big difference between not prioritizing athleticism and your statement "we're not athletic." Saul has been (remarkably) consistent in recruiting guys who fit into his system. Our roster has a lot of guys who don't rely on their athleticism to score because our roster has a lot of guys who are shooters first. I've seen some knock Gavin Block's athleticism yet Gavin Block is a 6-7 guy with the quickness to operate primarily as a shooter playing on the perimeter while maintaining the strength to contribute for us in the post. How many 6-7+ players who have worn the OHIO jersey have had Block's shooting ability and versatility? Elijah Thomas for Clemson is a freak athlete (6-8 w/7-1 wingspan) and he killed us (17 and 15) but does anyone really think Jason Carter doesn't have ability to go out and compete with him for rebounds while aiding in defending him? I've seen Carter throw down plenty of athletic dunks himself and similar to our two freshman bigs (6-8 and 6-7) they all have some level on ability to step outside and hit 3's. A lot of big guys in the NCAA do not have the quickness to step out and defend guys like this. I haven't seen anything since Saul has arrived to suggest this style of play doesn't work. We've won a fair share of games despite the worst stretch of luck with injuries that I recall Ohio hoops having. If we can get healthy, I don't see what pieces this team is missing. -The ball movement tonight was the most encouraging thing for me. Almost all the 3's we took were open looks despite starting a freshman at PG. Look at the 3 guys who played over 30 minutes: Laster, Block, Dartis. All have been contributing since they were freshman and it's paying off now with their understanding of the offense and chemistry. -Kirk really made some big plays down the stretch. Showed some good athleticism driving to basket and made some nice passes. Also had a couple huge rebounds. He made some questionable decisions but not anything you wouldn't expect from a freshman. Feeling good he is answer at PG. Tons of potential. I've seen crazier things happen. Back to Top bornacatfan General User Member Since: 8/3/2006 Post Count: 5,706 Status: Offline     RE: Considerng my expectations, A+ effort!    Posted: 11/17/2017 9:09:01 AM  Good, salient, comprehensive and pertinent post right there. never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer..... The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game Back to Top Bobcat1998 General User Member Since: 11/7/2012 Post Count: 2,229 Status: Offline     RE: Considerng my expectations, A+ effort!    Posted: 11/17/2017 9:17:33 AM  bornacatfan wrote: Good, salient, comprehensive and pertinent post right there. I was worried about this team in a nationally-televised game without JC but man did the guys come through! We got tons of compliments from the commentators and the people we need to be leaders were leaders (although Doug really stumped me with his performance). Kirk played like a freshman but also had some moments that made me think that when he gets into MAC play after all these tough non-league games he can be a beast. Just wish he had an outside shot. Mickle impresses me as well and Laster is slowly becoming one of my favorite Bobcats ever. Most players would have transferred if they were limited as a sophomore like he was after starting as a freshman but he weathered it and has blossomed. I like this team. They are going to lay some eggs too but I think the effort is awesome. Back to Top OUVan General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Bethesda, MD Post Count: 5,580 Status: Offline     RE: Considerng my expectations, A+ effort!    Posted: 11/17/2017 9:28:03 AM  Chicken George wrote: Let me be 100% transparent. I will be at every game and I want to be 100% wrong, but I'm not bullish about this year, nor the direction of the hoops program in general. Been that way for a couple years and hoping I'm dead wrong and justify why I'm not a college hoops CEO. *2 years of Simmons playing 40 minutes with no suitable backup, we don't recruit a PG, he leaves and we have no experience ready when he "blindsides" us? *Campbell graduates and that's the big we have ready? *we save a scholarship for what? *we have this niche recruiting philosophy where when the goings good you look like a genius recruiting the guy who has no DI offers, but when it's not going great you look like a .... *we have too much dead weight on the bench *we're not athletic and have some very limited guys on the roster (ie: the recruiting philosophy of the administration) Yet still tonight, they totally exceeded my expectations. I still think we're more than JC away from a full deck, but great effort. Not often am I a fairweathored OHIO fan, but I was on this trip. I planned on coming, it was getting tight family/work-wise making it happen for a number of reason and watching the Alabama A&M sent me over the top and I stayed home. You made the most of the shorthanded deck you had and fought hard. I expect little this season, but I hope tonight proves that I'm 100% wrong! Let me just say that I completely disagree with most of your bullet points. Who are these players that no other D1 offers? The only one I agree with is not having a PG but even that is tempered with the fact that he thought he would have this year to train two of them up. That being said we are a completely different team without Jason Carter in the lineup. Without him we have very little interior offense and Clemson (and Alabama A&M) was able to focus their entire defensive pressure on our perimeter offense. We struggled mightily early on and in the beginning of the second half but adjusted nicely as the game went on. It's going to be a bumpy ride but this might just be the thing Jordan Dartis needs to change his mentality and become an alpha. But we need to get at least two of the three bigs back before conference play starts or we are going to continue to struggle against good front line players on defense. I like Teyvion Kirk's fearless play but he's got to look to facilitate more IMO. He missed, by my count, at least five opportunities to set up wide open Dartis and Gavin Block. He also missed a number of other passes in transition including an obvious one that would have given Mike Laster a layup. That game exposed our flaws and highlighted our potential all in one and I'm encouraged. Back to Top allen General User Member Since: 1/24/2006 Post Count: 4,630 Status: Offline     RE: Considerng my expectations, A+ effort!    Posted: 11/17/2017 9:56:03 AM  Taylor needs to rebound and block shots with Carter sitting out. His stat line was pretty awful. Taylor has talent, I think he just needs to play with confidence. Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes Back to Top GoCats105 General User Member Since: 1/31/2006 Location: Seattle, WA Post Count: 6,910 Status: Offline     RE: Considerng my expectations, A+ effort!    Posted: 11/17/2017 9:58:49 AM  OUVan wrote: Chicken George wrote: Let me be 100% transparent. I will be at every game and I want to be 100% wrong, but I'm not bullish about this year, nor the direction of the hoops program in general. Been that way for a couple years and hoping I'm dead wrong and justify why I'm not a college hoops CEO. *2 years of Simmons playing 40 minutes with no suitable backup, we don't recruit a PG, he leaves and we have no experience ready when he "blindsides" us? *Campbell graduates and that's the big we have ready? *we save a scholarship for what? *we have this niche recruiting philosophy where when the goings good you look like a genius recruiting the guy who has no DI offers, but when it's not going great you look like a .... *we have too much dead weight on the bench *we're not athletic and have some very limited guys on the roster (ie: the recruiting philosophy of the administration) Yet still tonight, they totally exceeded my expectations. I still think we're more than JC away from a full deck, but great effort. Not often am I a fairweathored OHIO fan, but I was on this trip. I planned on coming, it was getting tight family/work-wise making it happen for a number of reason and watching the Alabama A&M sent me over the top and I stayed home. You made the most of the shorthanded deck you had and fought hard. I expect little this season, but I hope tonight proves that I'm 100% wrong! Let me just say that I completely disagree with most of your bullet points. Who are these players that no other D1 offers? The only one I agree with is not having a PG but even that is tempered with the fact that he thought he would have this year to train two of them up. That being said we are a completely different team without Jason Carter in the lineup. Without him we have very little interior offense and Clemson (and Alabama A&M) was able to focus their entire defensive pressure on our perimeter offense. We struggled mightily early on and in the beginning of the second half but adjusted nicely as the game went on. It's going to be a bumpy ride but this might just be the thing Jordan Dartis needs to change his mentality and become an alpha. But we need to get at least two of the three bigs back before conference play starts or we are going to continue to struggle against good front line players on defense. I like Teyvion Kirk's fearless play but he's got to look to facilitate more IMO. He missed, by my count, at least five opportunities to set up wide open Dartis and Gavin Block. He also missed a number of other passes in transition including an obvious one that would have given Mike Laster a layup. That game exposed our flaws and highlighted our potential all in one and I'm encouraged. And Jordy hasn't even begun to shoot his normal percentage from three. Really the whole team hasn't. Having Jason out is forcing other guys to make plays in ways they wouldn't normally make. The team is learning as it goes along. To dovetail off that, who's to say this might not be a precursor for what happens later on in the year. What if JC gets in foul trouble in the MAC Tournament again? We'll look back and say, "oh yeah, remember Charleston?" Back to Top Chicken George General User Member Since: 1/2/2005 Post Count: 762 Status: Offline     RE: Considerng my expectations, A+ effort!    Posted: 11/17/2017 10:26:21 AM  The Optimist wrote: I've got no problem if people disagree with my "green kool-aid" outlook for this season but this roster is not nearly as "shorthanded" as some imagine. Many of the issues mentioned about the roster makeup could have been (and often were) echoed about rosters in years past prior to Saul. *Rodney Culvar transferred after playing some as a freshman but not quite getting the minutes he wanted. The same happened with Ryan Taylor, TyQuane Goard and Jay Kinney before him. *Plenty of guys who were called "dead weight" and "wasted space" on our bench in the past: Ethan Jacobs, Kadeem Green, Chandler Thomas, Wadly and many more. Khari Harley was a Christian recruit. Even guys who had pretty nice Senior years for us like KVK and Asown Sayles took heat. That doesn't even began to scratch into some of the guys on those TOS teams. 2011-2012 We had 9 players average 10+ minutes per game 2016-2017 We had 9 players average 10+ minutes per game *Campbell graduates and we have a sophomore post player returning who was Freshman All-MAC last year. *If DJ Cooper "blindsides" Ohio after our Sweet 16 run his Junior season and transfers to Baylor (as it was rumored) we all would've been crushed. The only other Point Guard returning the next season was Stevie Taylor who had averaged only 10 minutes the year prior. ... The main difference compared to past years is our style of play under Saul. Christian, Groce, O'Shea and Hunter teams each had a unique look and feel but each of those coaches definitely placed more of a priority on raw athleticism than Saul does. There's a big difference between not prioritizing athleticism and your statement "we're not athletic." Saul has been (remarkably) consistent in recruiting guys who fit into his system. Our roster has a lot of guys who don't rely on their athleticism to score because our roster has a lot of guys who are shooters first. I've seen some knock Gavin Block's athleticism yet Gavin Block is a 6-7 guy with the quickness to operate primarily as a shooter playing on the perimeter while maintaining the strength to contribute for us in the post. How many 6-7+ players who have worn the OHIO jersey have had Block's shooting ability and versatility? Elijah Thomas for Clemson is a freak athlete (6-8 w/7-1 wingspan) and he killed us (17 and 15) but does anyone really think Jason Carter doesn't have ability to go out and compete with him for rebounds while aiding in defending him? I've seen Carter throw down plenty of athletic dunks himself and similar to our two freshman bigs (6-8 and 6-7) they all have some level on ability to step outside and hit 3's. A lot of big guys in the NCAA do not have the quickness to step out and defend guys like this. I haven't seen anything since Saul has arrived to suggest this style of play doesn't work. We've won a fair share of games despite the worst stretch of luck with injuries that I recall Ohio hoops having. If we can get healthy, I don't see what pieces this team is missing. -The ball movement tonight was the most encouraging thing for me. Almost all the 3's we took were open looks despite starting a freshman at PG. Look at the 3 guys who played over 30 minutes: Laster, Block, Dartis. All have been contributing since they were freshman and it's paying off now with their understanding of the offense and chemistry. -Kirk really made some big plays down the stretch. Showed some good athleticism driving to basket and made some nice passes. Also had a couple huge rebounds. He made some questionable decisions but not anything you wouldn't expect from a freshman. Feeling good he is answer at PG. Tons of potential. Yes, excellent post Optimist--let me correct myself, I'll delete the comment about interest in our recruits as that's distracted from the main point and agree with enough to reconstruct my point. To your point, I guess I don't often care for this style of ball (poor man's Belien-ball & Wisconsin ball). When it's working, as with the Pittsnogle WVU teams, it's a thing of art and I'm sure I'll love it. When it's not, you feel like you have recruits that are a step slow, can't create their own shots and can't defend one-on-one even though that's all you play. You feel like you have guys that look like they're more suited to play at Marietta College than they are say Maryland. I guess they use the terms High IQ players who stretch the floor and can all shoot. Who the pure shooters are on this squad outside of Dartis and Block for one game last night, I'm not sure--but that's the philosophy I guess. And while injuries have a been a big part, haven't we had a short bench since day one with SP? Heck, he doesn't trust half the guys either as he wears the tread off a small group of guys. Sorry and I hope I'm wrong, I just feel we're more than Jason Carter away from being relevant. And you're point about the 2 other bigs who are hurt? You're banking on two guys who haven't played 1 minute of college ball and you have no idea what they do/do not bring to the table. But we're that thin and desperate that we're using them as an excuse as to why we're thin. Good news is that we look better than I anticipated last night and "IF" JC comes back and "IF" the 2 bigs we've never seen play come back and can contribute and "IF" the freshman PG continues to develop and "IF" Dartis/Block can be red hot--we'll be pretty good. In conclusion, your post was excellent and when the pass & pop is working on all cyclinders and we're not counting on multiple freshman to save the day, I will be the first to be excited with you. Back to Top OUVan General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Bethesda, MD Post Count: 5,580 Status: Offline     RE: Considerng my expectations, A+ effort!    Posted: 11/17/2017 11:25:20 AM  Chicken George wrote: You're banking on two guys who haven't played 1 minute of college ball and you have no idea what they do/do not bring to the table. But we're that thin and desperate that we're using them as an excuse as to why we're thin. Ummm, yeah. Every year nearly every single team in college basketball relies on one or more freshman to fill out their rotation. Clemson had two freshman last night play double digits in minutes. From all reports that I heard and read Ben Vander Plas was going to be a regular part of the rotation and had shown well in early practices and workouts. Not sure about Gareri but you can't dismiss the importance of having half and possibly 60% of our big man rotation (including our best player) out. Well you can and did but you shouldn't. And I get that you don't like Saul Ball. I do and I think it can work great if we can stay healthy. Every offense looks great when it works but horrible when it doesn't. And nearly every team on Earth is going to look like they have a short bench when three players are out with injury. But you seem to be okay blaming the injuries on Saul's recruiting. Back to Top Pataskala General User Member Since: 7/8/2010 Location: At least six feet away from anybody else Post Count: 9,152 Status: Offline     RE: Considerng my expectations, A+ effort!    Posted: 11/17/2017 11:44:16 AM  If this team can get past having long droughts, they can be very good. Last night we scored just seven points in the first 11:58 of the second half; 31 pts in the last 8:02. I think we had a six or seven-minute stretch after opening a big lead vs AA&M where we scored just three points. Both times it was due in large part to not getting threes to go. We will get by. We will get by. We will get by. We will survive. Back to Top OUVan General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Bethesda, MD Post Count: 5,580 Status: Offline     RE: Considerng my expectations, A+ effort!    Posted: 11/17/2017 12:57:25 PM  Pataskala wrote: If this team can get past having long droughts, they can be very good. Last night we scored just seven points in the first 11:58 of the second half; 31 pts in the last 8:02. I think we had a six or seven-minute stretch after opening a big lead vs AA&M where we scored just three points. Both times it was due in large part to not getting threes to go. We started the 2nd half taking three straight 3s (hitting one). But after Gavin Block hit a three to get us to 47-41, we went 1-9 over the next six or so minutes. Only one of those was a three (Jordan Dartis wide open from the corner). A lot of rushed or forced shots in there. We then followed that by missing our next four threes but followed that up hitting 5 straight. 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