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Topic: 2017-18 thoughts

Topic: 2017-18 thoughts

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Obc2
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Member Since: 11/8/2007
Location: Cincinnati, OH
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2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 9/30/2017 2:00:08 PM

*I noticed that the Ohio Bobcats team site has listed Freshman guards Butler and Kirk at 6'3", instead of an inch taller as listed on the Recruiting message board. no biggie, or course, but it caused me to do a quick check of the heights of everyone I (we) expect on the court this season. They're the shortest, along with Jordan. I wondered midway though his first season of coaching the Bobcats if Saul would recruit bigger G.

*I'm not a recruit guy. Don't know much of anything about those coming into the program before I see them either on TV or at the Convo. But, I wish this year's newbies all the luck and happiness in the world. It actually hurts my tummy when I see folks transfer from Ohio...mainly because I want them to have the four year experience I had there, not so much for what they can do for the team on the court. Weird, huh?

*We are making the trip to Athens from Cincinnati at least a couple times this season. I hope that all of you that are within driving distance of the Convo do likewise. I'm a huge fan of Saul and everyone on the roster, they all seem like outstanding young men. Makes a fella proud to be a Bobcat!!!

*Has there been a Bobcat in recent memory frustrate the opposition more than Gavin Block? I literally expect one opponent to lose their cool at least once per game. He reminds me of Xavier's JP Macura on the court (not in the bar). Glue guy.

*100% Saul fan here, unapologetic. I was so, so impressed when he led the entire team to high five the band/Ozone/Bobcat Black after the game last season- the tough defeat to Eastern Michigan when we lost Tone to injury early on. Class.

*I also really like Doug Taylor. Watch out if me takes a couple steps forward this season, i'm telling ya!

*Quick 2018-19 digression - front line will be 6'9" Taylor, 6'8" Carter, 6'8" Dozier, 6'9" Gareri, 6'7" Vander Plus, 6'7"McMurray and 6'10" Springs? and only Doug Taylor will be a senior in the paint? woah! which leads me to my next point:

*I am extremely bullish on the club for Jason Carter's senior season. i'm pretty optimistic for the next two years, also, don't get me wrong. But JC sr year looks like the proverbial freight train coming down the tracks. Watch out MAC!

OUVan
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Location: Bethesda, MD
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 9/30/2017 7:28:18 PM

Obc2 wrote:

and only Doug Taylor will be a senior in the paint?

Taylor is a Junior. Laster and Mickle are our Seniors.

Edit: Never mind. Just realized you were talking about next year. DOH

Last Edited: 9/30/2017 7:28:52 PM by OUVan

brucecuth
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 9/30/2017 7:49:07 PM

This is not going to be a fun season. There will be some pleasant surprises along the way, and I expect Jason Carter to be first team all MAC next March.

But BVP is already out indefinitely with a broken foot, according to Arkley. Taylor is recovering from wrist surgery. I think he mentioned AJG has an injury also.

And teams with freshmen point guards usually don't find a lot of success. It'll be a real test for Saul, and will require patience on our part.

Last Edited: 9/30/2017 7:51:43 PM by brucecuth

Jeff McKinney
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 9/30/2017 9:53:57 PM

Vander Plas time line was 12 weeks from the injury.

Bobcat1998
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 10/1/2017 9:28:27 AM

brucecuth wrote:

The MAC lost a ton of talent. We return JC, Dartis, Block, Laster and add a veteran in Mickle. When Doug is healthy and with two athletic point guards we will be good in the league. I think it will be a fun season to watch us progress.

shabamon
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Member Since: 11/17/2006
Location: Cincinnati
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 10/1/2017 11:07:13 AM

I agree with brucecuth. I think we will undergo some growing pains. Let's be real: we have two above average mid major players, a handful of role players, and a handful of question marks. It would be great if Butler and Kirk are DJ Cooper and Jeremy Fears, but expecting that from them is setting yourself up for disappointment. I bought the Street and Smith preview and they list us as 4th in the East behind BG. Really? BG? What do they have that's so great?

bshot44
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 10/2/2017 12:55:39 AM

Went from odds on MAC favorite with Simmons as PG to 4th in MAC East?!?!

Wow.

I, too, am not 100% comfortable relying on freshmen PGs to run the team.

Best hope, IMHO, is that by March this team gels and has a set rotation and experience to make a potential run at MAC tourney.

brucecuth
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 10/2/2017 9:20:41 AM

http://ohiobobcats.com/sports/mbkb/2017-18/releases/20171...

GoCats105
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 10/2/2017 9:22:56 AM

Think about this lineup then:

Dartis
Laster
Block
Carter
Taylor

That's not a terrible lineup to start the year if the freshmen aren't up to snuff. Let the older guys take care of things and bring the freshmen along progressively.

Bobcat1998
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 10/2/2017 9:52:17 AM

GoCats105 wrote:

I would feel great with that lineup. Then you toss in an athletic forward in Mickle, you have four freshmen who, while experiencing growing pains, may step up (I like to be optimistic) and you have Gollon and Dozier who are in their third years in the program as well. I think that realistically Carter will be First Team All-MAC at 15 and 8 and Laster will average somewhere between 10 and 12 points to step up. If one of Dartis, Block and Taylor can score double figures then we have three double-figure scorers with a group of guys (Two of Dartis, Block and Taylor along with hopefully three of Butler, Vander Plas, Mickle, Gareri, Kirk and Gollon) who average between 5 and 8 points and that gives us around 75 points per game. Not too shabby.

The Optimist
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 10/2/2017 10:27:43 AM

The fears posted about the quality of this team are nothing more than an emotional response to losing Jaaron Simmons a year earlier than expected.

There isn't a team in the MAC with a better core of returning wing players than we have in Gavin Block, Jordan Dartis and Mike Laster.

How many MAC programs have a big-man with more potential than Jason Carter?

"Teams with freshman point guards don't find a lot of success"
-Our last two teams starting freshman point guards made the NCAA Tournament.

I've seen crazier things happen.

OU_Country
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 10/2/2017 10:44:01 AM

Bobcat1998 wrote:

brucecuth wrote:

I keep seeing people refer to the amount of talent the MAC lost. While that may be true, there are still some teams ready to be pretty darn good: Ball State, UB, and Kent, for starters should be a notch above the rest of the conference.

I still think after it's all said an done, Ohio is positioned to be one of the top 4 seeds in Cleveland come March.

The Optimist wrote:

"Teams with freshman point guards don't find a lot of success"
-Our last two teams starting freshman point guards made the NCAA Tournament.

And then there's this. :)

Last Edited: 10/2/2017 10:44:59 AM by OU_Country

Ohio69
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 10/2/2017 11:42:13 AM

Gonna be a fun season for me as a fan as I have zero expectations this year.

Last year I had very high hopes until Campbell went down.

This year it looks like a group that will play team basketball and work had on both ends and will be easy to root for. And like others have noted, maybe we'll catch fire in February/March like 2005...

I also wonder how Carter is going to handle having teams entirely focused on stopping him. Could be a really tough year for him. Mentally and physically.

Last Edited: 10/2/2017 11:42:28 AM by Ohio69

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

GoCats105
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 10/2/2017 12:10:39 PM

Ohio69 wrote:

I also wonder how Carter is going to handle having teams entirely focused on stopping him. Could be a really tough year for him. Mentally and physically.

Counterpoint: I wonder how the opposition is going to feel knowing they're gonna have to stop THAT GUY every night. Mentally and physically. ;)

OUVan
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 10/2/2017 1:21:17 PM

Ohio69 wrote:

I also wonder how Carter is going to handle having teams entirely focused on stopping him. Could be a really tough year for him. Mentally and physically.

If we play Saul Ball he won't have to. If he does a good job of kicking the ball out when he's doubled Dartis, Block and company will make them pay.

I think the guy that may slip in under everyone's radar and make a contribution is Gollon. He should be able to backup both the 1 and 2.

The keys to our season IMO is how much of a leap Doug Taylor makes and whether Jordan Dartis has improved his confidence in ball handling.

GoCats105
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 10/2/2017 1:39:09 PM

OUVan wrote:

Ohio69 wrote:

I also wonder how Carter is going to handle having teams entirely focused on stopping him. Could be a really tough year for him. Mentally and physically.

bshot44
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 10/2/2017 4:23:24 PM

OU_Country wrote:

I still think after it's all said an done, Ohio is positioned to be one of the top 4 seeds in Cleveland come March.

That's almost the equivalent to having a pulse in the MAC, ha! Ohio should NEVER not be positioned as one of the top four seeds. This program is in trouble when they are just fighting to earn a top four seed in this league.

But I agree with you that there are some teams that have some talent returning

The Optimist wrote:

"Teams with freshman point guards don't find a lot of success"
-Our last two teams starting freshman point guards made the NCAA Tournament.

Yeah ... but the rest of those rosters had some pretty damn good talent.

If Dartis can make the leap and be an alpha male on offense and do more than just be a catch-and-shoot guy ... that would be a huge help!

Carter will get his on the boards, etc.

I just don't know who on this roster you feel comfortable when you need a bucket ... he's your guy.

Previous years, you've always had a guy (Cooper, Offutt, Ndour, Wilis, Campbell, Simmons, etc)

This roster feels like a lot of co-stars .... but no leading actors.

I think Dartis and Carter have the best chance to emerge into that role. But only time will tell.

Last Edited: 10/2/2017 4:23:38 PM by bshot44

bigtillyoopsupsideurhead
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 10/2/2017 7:44:00 PM

OU_Country wrote:

[QUOTE=Bobcat1998]
I still think after it's all said an done, Ohio is positioned to be one of the top 4 seeds in Cleveland come March.

Agree completely. I think Buffalo will be the best team in the conference again, but I see no reason why we can't be the 2nd best team in the East and a top 4 seed overall.

BG isn't scary at all. Akron is too young and a year away from competing. Kent has good guards, but no front-court at all this year.

Dartis and Carter are definitely going to be go-to scorers for us, but we need one more guy to step up for us to really be a threat in the MAC.

Who will that 3rd guy be? Block, Laster, one of the Freshmen? That is the big unknown right now.

Truelove
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 10/2/2017 10:28:46 PM

I've seen Kirk, Dartis , and Butler recently and Butler is taller than 6ft3 and he's least 6ft4 close to 6ft 5 He's taller than both Kirk and Dartis. I'm trying to figure why Butler is listed as 6ft3 ? Also, Kirk and Butler are going to play some good minutes because they're are the quickest and 2 of the 3 most athletic guards on the roster. Also , I've been told they're also are our best 2 defenders in the backcourt. The older guys are feeling HEAT because Butler and Kirk are coming to take minutes

OhioStunter
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 10/2/2017 10:55:35 PM

Truelove wrote:

I love the fact that new kids are pushing the veterans.

The Optimist
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 10/3/2017 4:04:35 AM

bshot44 wrote:

The Optimist wrote:

"Teams with freshman point guards don't find a lot of success"
-Our last two teams starting freshman point guards made the NCAA Tournament.

Yeah ... but the rest of those rosters had some pretty damn good talent.

This roster has some pretty damn good talent. Anyone can talk about how talented our rosters were AFTER we make the NCAA Tournament. Interestingly enough, prior to those tournament seasons both of those teams had a lot more roster uncertainty than we're facing this year.

Quote:

2003-2004: 10-20 (7-11 in MAC)
October 2004: We were coming off a disastrous 10-win season. We graduated our two leading scorers Jaivon Harris (15 ppg) and Thomas Stephens (10 ppg) as well as a pair of big-men in Delvar Barrett and Marin Bota. We had four rising-Seniors: James Bridgewater, Diamond Gladney, Terren Harbut and Clay McGowen. Would they qualify as "co-stars" or "leading actors" using your metrics? If anyone was seen as the "leading actor" it was probably Sonny Troutman who was a rising-junior. Fortunately, both Jeremy Fears and Leon Williams ended up being great recruits as true freshman. That team made a point to have growing pains every game so they could mount absurd comebacks.
2004-2005: NCAA Tournament

Quote:

2008-2009: 15-17 (7-9 in MAC)
October 2009: We were coming off a losing record in John Groce's first year and we graduated Jerome Tillman who most agreed was our best player. KVK was our only rising-Senior. No one knew if Armon Bassett would even make it on the court. DeVaughn Washington and Tommy Freeman were rising juniors widely viewed as "role-players." DJ Cooper was an unknown. This team had even more growing pains than the 04-05 team. Steven Coleman quit 10 games in to become a rapper. "The Armon Bassett Experience."
2009-2010: NCAA Tournament

Our roster this year has SIGNIFICANTLY more experience returning than either the 04-05 or 09-10 tournament teams had. Neither of those teams returned any players who averaged more than 10ppg the year prior. Both Fears and Cooper played with fellow newcomers next to them in the backcourt as scoring guards (Mychael Green, Armon Bassett) along with a big-man who averaged over 10ppg (DeVaughn Washington, Leon Williams)

Teyvion Kirk (or whoever starts at PG) couldn't be entering a better situation this season with Carter and Dartis already an established inside/outside threat.

...

We thought Kaminski would be our only loss from the post-Campbell injury roster, but then Jaaron Simmons quit on the team. Losing Simmons in that manner (especially considering many thought he was a MAC POTY candidate) is heart-breaking. Add to that our former-coach mentioned above becoming HC at Akron... Yeah, this off-season could not FEEL much worse.

It FEELS like a soul-crushing off-season but feelings can be deceiving. This is not a rebuilding year. This roster has more experience returning than Saul had in either of his first two seasons at Ohio. This roster will compete for the MAC Championship this season.
-Jordan Dartis is our first three-year starter as a Junior since Nick Kellogg.
-In addition to Dartis, Gavin Block is also entering year three in the program. Mike Laster was Saul's first recruiting class. This is a full four years for him. Both Block and Laster have played since stepping foot on campus and both got big minutes down the stretch last season. No other program in the MAC has a more versatile set of wing players.
-Jason Campbell is most highly-regarded big coming out of his freshman year since Leon Williams.
-All four of our incoming recruits had strong offers. This is the first year our entire roster is guys recruited by Saul. It's obvious based on the "fit" everyone has for our system. Sets up nicely year after year...

I think the MAC East will be very interesting. It's hard to imagine Kent minus Jimmy Hall, but they are extremely deep at guard and they signed BJ Duling from Newark. He is a bit undersized to replace Hall at PF at the moment but he will be a dangerous 3 immediately.
I'd love to hear an argument for us finishing below 3rd in the MAC East. Akron was due for a down season even before the coaching change/transfers due to what they were graduating. I think BG is about the same as last year while Miami is a little improved.

(I did see Akron signed Lapear Toles, other than that it doesn't look like Groce had time to do much in recruiting)

I've seen crazier things happen.

OU_Country
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 10/3/2017 10:10:52 AM

Truelove wrote:

He's probably listed at 6'3" because that's what he, or someone said he is. Take the roster heights with a half of a grain of salt.

Good to hear/read on the quickness and defense - thanks for that.

OU_Country
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 10/3/2017 10:19:57 AM

bshot44 wrote:

OU_Country wrote:

I still think after it's all said an done, Ohio is positioned to be one of the top 4 seeds in Cleveland come March.

In case you haven't noticed, Ball State and UB have upped their recruiting games in the last couple years. Akron, other that this coming season, is going to be every bit as good as they've been in the past if not better. Kent has recruited well, and other than losing Jimmy Hall, is very solid. And that doesn't include Western, or Toledo.

Ohio should be shooting to win the MAC every year, yes. But the conference as a whole is definitely getting better. To state the program is in trouble if they're fighting for a top four seed is either insulting to the rest of the conference, or naive - I'm not sure which in your case.

The keys to this year, along with what OUVan mentioned re: Taylor and Dartis, are also what they can get out of the freshmen + Gollon & Dozier (spare me the comments on these two - they could make a leap forward this year).

The returning players that played big minutes last year + Mickle are generally known commodities.

Jeff McKinney
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 10/3/2017 11:13:39 AM

Several MAC followers think Western could be at the top when all is said and done.

Gollon could be the breakout player this year. Mickle has been the surprise guy in summer and early Fall. Expect a solid contribution from him.

OU_Country
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RE: 2017-18 thoughts

Posted: 10/3/2017 11:33:00 AM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

Western returns a guy that's a POY candidate. Beyond Thomas Wilder, Jeff what are people saying about Western?

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