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Topic: RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Topic: RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

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bshot44
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/15/2017 11:05:40 AM

bigtillyoopsupsideurhead wrote:

bshot44 wrote:

OU_Country wrote:

EDIT: I say this because in general one of, or both of, the Sun Belt Conference and C-USA have been below the MAC in RPI for almost ten years.

Screw RPI

Sun Belt 6-13 NCAA tourney record since 2007

CUSA 14-14 NCAA tourney record since 2007

MAC 3-10 NCAA tourney record since 2007 (all Ohio wins, Go Cats!)

Both CUSA & Sun Belt have been multi-bid leagues multiple times in that time frame too. MAC hasn't in this century.

How many of the CUSA wins were Memphis. How many are teams that are still in the conference since the AAC poached them?

Among the NCAA qualifiers during this time period, only Houston and Tulsa have bolted along with Memphis. They were 0-2 in the NCAAs combined since 2008.

USM, MTSU, UTEP and UAB (the other team responsible for the CUSA NCAA participants outside of Memphis) are all still in the league.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/play-index/tourney.c...

MTSU and UAB have combined for 3 wins in the NCAA tourney since 2015. Just as many as the MAC has had since 2004.

I'm not trying to defend the CUSA as a CBB powerhouse .... but you're silly to argue that it's worse than the MAC ... especially when it comes to NCAA tourney success.

And they've added WKU, who is primarily responsible for Sun Belt success the past decade.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/play-index/tourney.c...

But even that league has 2 NCAA wins (minus WKU success) with UALR and GSU since 2015 .... which is more than the MAC has since 2013.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/play-index/tourney.c...

MAC has 17, 24 and 46 point losses in three of their last five NCAA tourney games. So even when they get there, they've been embarrassed recently.

CUSA and Sun Belt have been more competitive on that stage....and the games where they were blown out the last few years, it was after that same team had already won a game.

Take away Ohio's 6 NCAA games .... the rest of the league since 2004 is 0-11 and has lost by an average of nearly 16 points per game.

These are just facts. Sorry.

Last Edited: 8/15/2017 11:11:34 AM by bshot44

OU_Country
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/15/2017 12:39:41 PM

bornacatfan wrote:

Ha . I'm just going to grab a bag of 🍿 popcorn and see how this one goes

I was thinking the same thing. ;)

Big Willy
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/15/2017 3:58:42 PM

100%Cat wrote:

People act like scheduling good teams is a ticket to the dance. It's not. Ask Monmouth how their aggressive scheduling paid off for them on Selection Sunday a few years back. Wins over USC, UCLA, Georgetown, Rutgers, and Notre Dame. Add in respectable losses against Dayton and that same USC team (played them twice). They follow that up with 17-3 in conference play and a loss in their tourney final. All those big pre-season wins, what did they get Monmouth? Welcome to the NIT, boys! Which they were guaranteed anyway since they were their conference #1 seed and lost in the final. It didn't get them s__t, so why is it going to somehow work for us?

Scheduling good teams is not a guarantee you will get an at-large bid, but scheduling too many bad teams is a guarantee that you won't.

100%Cat
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/15/2017 4:05:22 PM

bshot44 wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

Monmouth got hosed that year .... and their league was baaaaad.

I'm guessing if Monmouth scheduled like that every year .... had similar results every year .... that they would eventually break thru.

Nobody had heard of Monmouth...so that probably didn't help.

But it wasn't that long ago that a lot people had never heard of Gonzaga or Wichita State or Butler for that matter.

Those teams didn't grow into really strong, national college basketball programs by playing Alabama A&M, Prairie View, Coppin State and NW Ohio every year.

I'm not saying Ohio is going to turn into a Top 25 program by scheduling better. But they sure as hell would pump some excitement into the program if they scheduled some teams our causal fans may have heard of ... or that some of our more hardcore fans actually respected.

And heavens forbid....if the stars aligned and they actually ripped off a 11-1 non-conference season .... maybe.....JUST MAYBE....they'd be in line for to join the at-large discussion with a good MAC season.

It will NEVER happen with the way they schedule now.

So your solution is to just quit trying? Ok...let's just schedule the entire SWAC and MEAC and play one road game at DePaul each year and get excited!

Our league, it isn't great. So I'm asking, what would Ohio scheduling "tough" really do for us? I'm not advocating don't try, I feel like I'm asking a realistic question with what I think is an obvious answer: it won't help us get to the big dance. When was the last time a MAC team got an at-large? And when was the last time Ohio got one? Winning in Cleveland is the only sure way in. How about we get in that way for a while and become "known" then?

bshot44
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/15/2017 5:07:05 PM

100%Cat wrote:

bshot44 wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

When was the last time a MAC team was at-large worthy? Or put together an at-large worthy resume? Or scheduled like they were trying to earn an at-large? Ohio 2013....they at least scheduled like one that year.

My point is ... why not schedule tough, like you're trying to earn an at-large. There are more positives from playing better competition, isn't there?

Gets you prepared for MAC season, doesn't it? And again, if you happen to have a pretty good team it gives you a chance to be in the at-large conversation.

Perfect example.....what if Ohio was really, really damn good last year. Ran off wins over GT, Iona, Marshall and WKU.....put together an 11-1 non-conference season and AC doesn't get hurt. They roll thru MAC at 15-3....and lost in MAC title game. At 27-5 would Ohio had even gotten a sniff of an at-large bid? Probably not. Why? Horrible schedule.

Why put yourself in that position? Makes no sense?

Would you rather be 27-5 and left out of the NCAA conversation all together .....

I see no benefits of playing 3 SWAC schools and a non D1 in the same season. None. Other than piling up worthless wins in front of empty stands. You think our freshman guards will get better by beating up on those teams? They're better off running a scrimmage in practice.

It would be nice if Ohio could just snap their fingers and win the MAC tourney each year ... but it doesn't happen like that. Those three nights in Cleveland are unpredictable and leave too much to chance. It's tough as hell to win three games in three nights.

My point is, if Ohio wanted to build their program and take it to the next level (not saying jump to the freakin' B1G) ... but become an at-large contender every few years, this isn't how they do it.

If the goal is to get to the NCAA tourney, then why not put yourself in the best position to do that? Find me any mid-major in the history of planet earth that has gotten an at-large bid playing three SWAC schools and a non D1?

bigtillyoopsupsideurhead
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/16/2017 11:40:36 AM

bshot44 wrote:

If the goal is to get to the NCAA tourney, then why not put yourself in the best position to do that? Find me any mid-major in the history of planet earth that has gotten an at-large bid playing three SWAC schools and a non D1?

You are right, you can't be an at-large with a schedule like that. What you can do is put up a very good record and win the MAC tournament and get in that way. Do that for a couple years in a row, get better recruits because of it and then you up your SoS and put yourself in at-large contention. If we played a tougher schedule right now the only thing that would change would be that we would have more losses.

Campus Flow
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/16/2017 12:41:32 PM

This program could use more TV coverages. Playing the ACC and Big East will do that.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

bshot44
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/16/2017 2:02:08 PM

bigtillyoopsupsideurhead wrote:

bshot44 wrote:

Agree with your thought process. But my question then is .... What was the thought process last year? Had an experienced team (KK, AC, Jaaron, Dartis ... all returning starters PLUS Block, Taylor, Laster all back off bench). The schedule was complete garbage ... and that team, had health not been an issue ... had a really good chance to put something together. But before the season even started, you knew they were already out of the at-large conversation because their best game was at Georgia Tech, a middle-of-the-road ACC team.

OU_Country
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/16/2017 2:48:00 PM

Uncle Wes wrote:

This program could use more TV coverages. Playing the ACC and Big East will do that.

When do you think that's going to happen?

100%Cat
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/16/2017 4:02:44 PM

bshot44 wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

bshot44 wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

"Worthless" wins in front of small crowds at least happen at home. Schedule tough, and how many of those games will come in Athens? Any, do you think? More than likely not.

I'm sorry if this is completely off base, but does anyone else not step back and look at the teams who get in the tourney and realize that the conference you come from matters. It seems to matter more than your record, more than how tough you scheduled, more than anything else. Look at the field from last year, and which Mid Major type conferences got more than one bid. A lot of leagues I think of as a slight step up from the MAC were still one bid leagues. The Colonial, CUSA, Mountain West, The Missouri Valley for crying out loud got ONE bid. I believe the West Coast Conf was the only multi-bid mid-major league. St Mary's was the one team. Their murderers row non-conference schedule consisted of one team from a power conference: Stanford. So do you think they got in because of that win, alone? Did their games against Prairie View A&M, UT Arlington, Texas A&M Corpus Christi, and South Carolina State keep them out? Did going 0-3 against Gonzaga get them in? I'm not sure why more folks don't feel like the obvious reason why mid-majors don't get a lot of at-large bids is because the committee doesn't want them there. If there weren't auto-bids, a lot of conferences wouldn't get a team in, period. Do you remember Davidson (can't remember the exact year) one year going undefeated in their conference and I believe nearly 30 wins was still listed as a bubble team before their conference tourney final.

I feel like all this talk about at-large bids and strength of schedule is a complete waste of time. We're in the MAC. It's a 1-bid league. Win the dang tournament or we're not in. End of story.

OU_Country
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/16/2017 4:08:18 PM

100%Cat wrote:

I feel like all this talk about at-large bids and strength of schedule is a complete waste of time. We're in the MAC. It's a 1-bid league. Win the dang tournament or we're not in. End of story.

I can't wait for the response to this and everything you said before it. I wonder if borna has any of that popcorn left?

bshot44
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/16/2017 4:19:18 PM

100%Cat wrote:

bshot44 wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

bshot44 wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

St. Mary's got in because the WCC is a helluva lot better league than the MAC (9th compared to 14th)... that's why St. Mary's got in. They had good games built-in to their league schedule.

Four Top-100 teams....

https://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/standings/con...

Unlike the MAC...who had just 1 Top 100 team

https://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/standings/con...

St. Mary's was a Top 20 RPI team that was 5-4 in RPI Top 100 games .... including a road win at Dayton and a home win vs. MWC champ Nevada.

They've also built up some name recognition over the years and are a pretty well respected program.

Name me a MAC school that was snubbed with 28 wins? That's because no MAC team ever wins 28 games and not the MAC title game. And if they did .... they probably had an AWFUL schedule (I'm looking at you Akron)

Illinois State got snubbed last year cause their out of league schedule was garbage.

Murray State got snubbed that one year because their out of league schedule was awful.

Sense a theme?

Mid-majors get snubbed generally for playing terrible out of conference schedules.

And yes... this is primarily because P6 teams won't play them. That sucks. It totally does. But that's the deck that's been dealt, so they need to find a way around it.

Whether that's becoming a road warrior and just hitting the road to play them....or finding different options.

But to just wave the towel and deem it "impossible" is such a defeatist attitude.

If Ohio was in the MEAC, that's one thing. But Ohio isn't.

I strongly believe that Ohio could build themselves into the elite MAC program and one that can consistently be in the running for not just the MAC title, but at-large consideration. They just need to make that commitment. Scheduling the way they do won't get them there.

There was a time not too long ago that Butler, Wichita State, Gonzaga, St. Mary's, Northern Iowa, Davidson, etc. .... all those schools were on the outside looking in. I'm not suggesting Ohio will grow into that and join a major conference. But all those teams started building up their basketball programs by playing better schedules ... parlaying that with NCAA success....and suddenly they were on the national radar. Ohio has had decent NCAA success...but they've failed to follow it up those two years. That sucks because I thought in 2013 they were ready to break thru and it didn't work out.

Maybe I'm just a wide-eyed optimist, but I don't think it's too crazy to think this program can excel and strive for more. They put a lot of money into basketball ... why that can't be coupled with more aggressive scheduling is beyond me. Maybe it's because of that MAC referendum on home games? I don't know. But to me, scheduling three SWAC sisters of the poor AND non-D1s is a joke. Let EMU and NIU do that. You're Ohio. Carry yourself like the best program in the MAC....don't play down to the MAC's level.

Last Edited: 8/16/2017 4:24:26 PM by bshot44

Campus Flow
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/16/2017 8:36:18 PM

OU_Country wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

This program could use more TV coverages. Playing the ACC and Big East will do that.

When do you think that's going to happen?

We've stepped up to 2 ACC schools on the schedule helped by the preseason tournament. Very close this year to having Dayton down at the Convo but couldnt find the right weekend. The fact the MAC has a national TV deal for basketball should help get more willing to play us.

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2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

Alan Swank
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/16/2017 10:46:47 PM

Uncle Wes wrote:

OU_Country wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

This program could use more TV coverages. Playing the ACC and Big East will do that.

When do you think that's going to happen?

Please define national tv.

bshot44
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/17/2017 9:38:07 AM

Alan Swank wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

OU_Country wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

This program could use more TV coverages. Playing the ACC and Big East will do that.

When do you think that's going to happen?

Please define national tv.

We have a small deal with ESPN that airs Friday night games once conference season starts (and they lump in that ridiculous ESPN3)

We also have a deal with CBS Sports Network who airs games throughout the conference schedule.

I'm guessing that's what he is referring to.

But as far as a MAC non-conference game being played ON A MAC HOME COURT ... I'd highly doubt you'll ever see those on national TV

Last Edited: 8/17/2017 9:39:14 AM by bshot44

brucecuth
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/17/2017 10:01:58 AM

OU_Country wrote:

brucecuth wrote:

OU_Country wrote:

Maddog13 wrote:

My own interpretation of what I have heard and read over the years is that top Division 1 teams have always been wary about scheduling MAC teams, and to definitely avoid playing them at their own home arenas. It also appears that the emphasis on coaches these days is to try to pad your winning percentage early, which might explain the reason that certain challenging situations are avoided in the early part of the season. Is it my imagination, or has the out of conference scheduling become pretty dull and uninspired in recent history in terms of the Bobcats themselves? I am also curious about the logistic and expense of becoming more involved in early season tournaments.

Can we define two things here? 1) what constitutes dull vs exciting when we're talking about non-conf opponents? 2) When we're talking "recent history", are we talking the last 5 years, 15 years, or what? I have an opinion, but if I'm referring to the wrong time frames, it's probably different.

I'd love to know about the expense of those tournaments as well, particularly as it could possibly relate to the quality of home opponents they can afford to bring to Athens. While I don't know the specifics, I'd imagine there's certainly the potential that being involved in Charleston Classic equates to having NW Ohio as a regular season game.

I'll tell you what I look for in non-con opponents. NAME BRANDS. I really don't care if we're playing a team that casual fans cannot identify, even if it did play in the NCAA a year ago. I want NAME BRAND schools with maybe a coach the casual fan might have seen on ESPN a couple times, or a scorer who was among the top 20 in the country last year and is being talked about as a future pro...

Alabama A&M? The only reason I know there is an Alabama A&M is 'cuz that's where Semeka Randall ended up after making a hash of our womens' program. Northwest Ohio? An NAIA school? And people yell at me when I say we're minor league...THAT is minor league scheduling.

Good thing for you, you're getting two name brands in this year's schedule, and maybe more if they can beat Clemson.

AT HOME, OU-C! I'll gladly go play Alabama A&B&C&D in Alabama and any NAIA school on their home court, if we could play Clemson here...there haven't been any name brand schools here for years, and I honestly don't know hard we try to get them.

100%Cat
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/17/2017 11:11:52 AM

36 at-large bids and ONE of them going to a mid major is also a theme.

Campus Flow
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/17/2017 11:39:20 AM

bshot44 wrote:

Alan Swank wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

OU_Country wrote:

Uncle Wes wrote:

This program could use more TV coverages. Playing the ACC and Big East will do that.

When do you think that's going to happen?

Please define national tv.

National TV I consider anything over a cable network. ESPN/2, FS1, CBS Sports. ESPN3 I am not going to watch this year with enough games on cable.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

Campus Flow
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/17/2017 11:52:55 AM

100%Cat wrote:

36 at-large bids and ONE of them going to a mid major is also a theme.

The A10 had 3 bids this year. MAC jobs havent paid enough to keep successful coaches around. Ohio can't justify increased expenditure unless everyone else in the MAC is spending. That is starting to change with Akron bringining in Groce there is an arms race in basketball. In the A10 you have the Daytons and VCUs that pay but also some peanuts jobs like St. Bonaventure. The bottom third of the MAC is now paying better. The best option for Ohio is to increase the basketball investment forcing other MAC schools to keep up which I believe is beginning to happen.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

100%Cat
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/17/2017 1:18:29 PM

Uncle Wes wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

36 at-large bids and ONE of them going to a mid major is also a theme.

Sorry, I don't consider the A10 a mid major. Neither do the folks who run the Mid Major Top 25 poll.

OU_Country
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/17/2017 3:29:32 PM

brucecuth wrote:

OU_Country wrote:

brucecuth wrote:

OU_Country wrote:

Maddog13 wrote:

Good thing for you, you're getting two name brands in this year's schedule, and maybe more if they can beat Clemson.

You didn't say AT HOME in your initial post, now did you? And if you think you're getting a name brand school, based on your criteria mentioned above, to come to Athens in the current college basketball climate, well, I have a spectacular piece of waterfront property on the Hocking I'll see ya for about $25 million.

It's 2017-2018, not 1968-1969 when The Convo opened. Getting Indiana or Ohio State to come to Athens simply ain't gonna happen without major cash being shelled out. And that only bumps up the likelihood of teams like that coming in from 0% to 10% or something else incredibly unlikely.

OU_Country
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/17/2017 3:30:56 PM

100%Cat wrote:

Sorry, I don't consider the A10 a mid major. Neither do the folks who run the Mid Major Top 25 poll.

Neither do the TV networks.

OUVan
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/17/2017 4:37:58 PM

bshot44 wrote:

Illinois State got snubbed last year cause their out of league schedule was garbage.

Murray State got snubbed that one year because their out of league schedule was awful.

Sense a theme?

The theme is that in the current environment no one can put together a good enough schedule to get an at-large. You need look no further than Monmouth in 2016. Exactly one mid-major has received an at-large the last two tournaments (2016-0, 2017-1). So we can cry and complain until we are blue in the face but in the end it doesn't really matter. We've put exactly one team that might have been at-large worthy on the court in the last 20+ years (2012) and that team wasn't even a bubble team because it pooped the bed during a four day stretch in February. Our schedule has never been a factor in us not getting into the tournament. Ever.

We are what we are. The MAC fell behind in the early part of this century because we didn't spend the money on basketball. When we finally decided to try to catch back up a series of really bad hires dug the conference an even deeper hole. We need one program to really step it up an elevate the rest of the conference.

Campus Flow
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/17/2017 8:41:20 PM

OU_Country wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

Sorry, I don't consider the A10 a mid major. Neither do the folks who run the Mid Major Top 25 poll.

Neither do the TV networks.

Then why is the MAC's TV deal worth 10 million a year when the A10 is worth 5 million a year? The A10 is not a power conference.

https://www.bigeastcoastbias.com/2012/10/3/3448664/new-at...

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

OUVan
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RE: Why is the MAC so relatively bad in Basketball?

Posted: 8/18/2017 8:35:49 AM

Uncle Wes wrote:

OU_Country wrote:

100%Cat wrote:

Sorry, I don't consider the A10 a mid major. Neither do the folks who run the Mid Major Top 25 poll.

Neither do the TV networks.

Then why is the MAC's TV deal worth 10 million a year when the A10 is worth 5 million a year? The A10 is not a power conference.

https://www.bigeastcoastbias.com/2012/10/3/3448664/new-at...

Maybe because they don't have football. If you read the article it mentions that the ACC splits their payouts 80%/20% football/basketball. In those terms the MAC deal would allocate about $2M for basketball. Only three of their fourteen schools don't have a higher basketball budget than Ohio (we have the highest budget in the MAC with Akron right behind us). And all three of those schools are only slightly behind us and have significantly higher budgets than the 3rd place MAC team, BG.

The A-10 is not a POWER conference but they are a power conference. And if they aren't what does that make us?

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