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Topic: RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Topic: RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

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OU_Country
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 6/23/2017 3:41:18 PM

bshot44 wrote:

Jeff McKinney wrote:

We go through this SAME argument every year when the schedule starts to come out. Last year Urbana, now NW Ohio this year.

Some schools like EMU and NIU have been scheduling three or four games a season like this. We should count ourselves lucky it's only one game for Ohio.

Shouldn't we be better than EMU & NIU in hoops?

Why lower ourselves to their standards in hoops as it being "okay" if we don't elevate our expectations to be like NIU & Toledo in football and schedule the likes of USC, Michigan State, etc?

If Ohio is THE elite program (football & basketball) in the MAC, we shouldn't be following anyone else's lead....we should be leading the way. Right?

I have no problem with Urbana, Marietta or NW Ohio as an exhibition. But to play them as a regular season game is kind of silly. Even if other (bottom-feeding) MAC programs do it.

You can argue RPI all you want ... but when was the last time Ohio actually put together a schedule that had any prayer of earning an at-large bid? 2012-13? If you're going to use RPI as a reasoning, then put together a schedule that shows you want to be part of the at-large conversation (assuming you get the wins)

Why exactly is this one game a big deal? Ohio State, Dayton, Cincinnati - three of the premier basketball programs in our state in the past schedule one of these games sometimes as well? What about one damn game puts Ohio in a place of non-leadership and down to EMU or NIU?

And if you're concerned about the 2017-18 season's RPI because of this one game, you're not paying attention to the five games already on the schedule (that have been talked about at the beginning of this thread) that should be solid RPI/SOS games.

bshot44
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 6/23/2017 4:50:01 PM

OU_Country wrote:

bshot44 wrote:

Jeff McKinney wrote:

Find me a game on the Ohio State or Cincinnati schedule against a non D-I that isn't an exhibition game.

Both Walsh and Bellermine were exhibition games.

UD apparently was scrambling for a game after Ohio backed out, so they scheduled St. Joseph's (Ind).

Ohio scheduled Urbana as a regular season game.

Just like they did Ohio Dominican the year before.

Those should be exhibition games .... not regular season games.

And I have been paying attention to the schedule .... I'm well aware of the Charleston Classic (see the previous comments where I actually commented on it) and I'm aware of Iona and WKU coming into the Convo. Those are both good games. No argument from me.

My point is people that defend these horrific games with Urbana and ODU, saying they don't hurt our RPI, that's why we play them. Our schedule the last two years .... littered with the likes of Southern, Bryant, Tennessee Tech, Milwaukee, Alcon St, Arkansas Pine-Bluff and Appy State ... didn't have an RPI to worry about. Even if Ohio went undefeated last year in the non-conference, they were not sniffing an at-large bid. Their SOS in the non-conference was 282. That's awful. They only played one Top 100 team in non-conference (GT at 79) and only played one other one that was Top 150 (Marshall 108). Everyone else was sub-200 except Sam Houston who was 193.

It was much better in 2015-16 when it was 159 because they had St. Bonnie, FSU and Tulsa.

In 2014-15 it was pretty similar.

http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2015/schedule/Ohio

Point is ... whether it was intentional or not ... the schedule dropped off big time last year. Hopefully it was a blip on the radar.

Last Edited: 6/23/2017 5:05:03 PM by bshot44

The Optimist
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 6/23/2017 7:07:14 PM

Our annual men's basketball budget is $1 million dollars higher than both EMU and NIU. That's the obvious part.

The ugly underbelly is a lot uglier than that. It doesn't leave me feeling lucky, it leaves me feeling disgusted. Our NCAA Tournament wins are literally subsidizing their budgets. The intent of revenue sharing within the MAC was to provide funds for teams to increase home games with the ultimate goal of improving individual school's OOC RPI which would ultimately raise the entire conference's RPI. It was a nice theory, but you've got leeches like EMU and NIU who get around scheduling legitimate D-1 opponents by filling their home schedules with lower division opponents. The MAC "formula" needs to be reworked to prevent the scum of the conference from taking advantage of the system.

I've seen crazier things happen.

perimeterpost
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 6/23/2017 10:04:57 PM

the conference we are in is asking its members to commit to playing 50% of regular season games at home. That 5-6 home OOC games every year. You've got a telephone, if you think you can book 5-6 better opponents then pick up the phone and start dialing.

MY STATE. MY TEAM.

mcbin
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 6/24/2017 9:09:06 AM

A not super surprising article, but I can see Ohio having similar scheduling difficulties as UTA every now and again.

http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/college/baseball/arti...

Jeff McKinney
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 6/24/2017 9:28:36 AM

I wish we played tougher schedules, but I'm not going to get too upset over one regular season game per year vs a lower division opponent. Most mid majors do it for various reasons. It becomes bad when a mid major schedules several of them.

cc-cat
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 6/24/2017 9:53:28 AM

One game doesn't impact our overall schedule. And let's remember our RPI is basically irrelevant. It makes fans happy but at the end of the year only one game matters - the MAC championship game. To me the value of a strong OOC schedule is it prepares the team for a long MAC season and Cleveland. One "bad" game against a lower level doesn't change that.

Of course P5 football fans are being trained to say the same thing about playing us.

OU_Country
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 6/25/2017 1:57:31 PM

mcbin wrote:

A not super surprising article, but I can see Ohio having similar scheduling difficulties as UTA every now and again.

http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/college/baseball/arti...

What this highlights along with the point made by permimeterpost about the number of MAC required home games, is that the scheduling situation, as has been discussed ad nauseum in this forum, isn't likely to change. Complaining about it every single summer and early fall is truly a wasted effort IMO. To me, to a certain degree, it's one of those "It is what it is" situations until some of the cards Ohio is dealt by either the MAC office, or the NCAA, change. I think they're trying pretty hard to get better schedules. The home and home with WKU and Iona, along with the scheduled tournaments are pretty decent evidence of that to me.

Something not yet discussed, but worth the question for me, is the effect of Fuss leaving, and his replacement, on scheduling. Unless I'm mistaken, he had a lot to do with scheduling, did he not?

Last Edited: 6/25/2017 1:58:44 PM by OU_Country

mcbin
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 6/25/2017 4:32:02 PM

Yeah, pretty sure Fuss was 'the guy' for most scheduling the last handful of years. Will be interesting to see who it is now, and what they can do.

The Optimist
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 6/26/2017 8:51:56 AM

cc-cat wrote:

One game doesn't impact our overall schedule.

When you only play 7 OOC regular season games, I'd argue every single one is pretty meaningful.

Quote:

And let's remember our RPI is basically irrelevant. It makes fans happy but at the end of the year only one game matters - the MAC championship game. To me the value of a strong OOC schedule is it prepares the team for a long MAC season and Cleveland. One "bad" game against a lower level doesn't change that.

The RPI is relevant. It's our conference's RPI that is irrelevant. There is a big difference between those two statements. A lot of things seem irrelevant because you suck at them but all of a sudden become relevant once you do them well.

If the financial incentives offered by the MAC designed to raise the quality of play in our conference had worked, this conversation if framed in a very different light. The financial incentives didn't work. Most of this conference would rather schedule garbage home games "on the cheap" to meet qualifications for their subsidies rather than actually try to improve their basketball programs.

I've seen crazier things happen.

cc-cat
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 6/26/2017 9:02:45 AM

But the reality is unless a team has an incredible season (e.g. 27-3) and loses in the MAC finals we are a 1 bid league - and even in that case a second bid is not assured. Having one game against NW Ohio would not change that. Agree if the MAC overall had a stronger RPI (better OOC) the situation may change ( in that the criteria for an incredible season may be lowered - e.g. 25-5).

OUVan
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 6/26/2017 12:23:22 PM

The Optimist wrote:

If the financial incentives offered by the MAC designed to raise the quality of play in our conference had worked, this conversation if framed in a very different light. The financial incentives didn't work. Most of this conference would rather schedule garbage home games "on the cheap" to meet qualifications for their subsidies rather than actually try to improve their basketball programs.

Are you sure it didn't work? Here is the breakdown from the last 9 seasons. The first number after the year is the total number of home games for MAC teams. The second number is the MAC's KenPom ranking.

2017 - 190 - 13
2016 - 195 - 12
2015 - 191 - 11
2014 - 190 - 14
2013 - 179 - 15
2012 - 177 - 14
2011 - 182 - 19
2010 - 178 - 16
2009 - 165 - 19

Our problem is not the scheduling. It's that we haven't had enough great teams. And I totally disagree that we can't get an at-large team. We just haven't had that team in too long to remember.

bshot44
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 6/27/2017 1:39:50 PM

Agree with the idea that RPI should matter. And yes, one game is a big deal. It wasn't that long ago that Ohio went on road to Oklahoma, UMass, Belmont & Memphis in one season. Oh...and they had Richmond, Oakland, UNCW, Winthrop & St Bonnie at home. That team didnt schedule Urbana or ODU...and they successfully had 10 home non-conference games.

That was 4 years ago...not 44.

Ohio schedules haven't really been as good and in a lot of cases worse since then.

They finished with an RPI of 76 that year. The schedule in 2014 was better (RPI 85) and in 2016 (RPI was 86)

Last year...RPI was 117. Not too impressive for a 2-seed that won 20 games...oops, 19 cause Urbana didn't count.

To say the MAC will never get an at-large team is so short sighted. Name me one MAC team since 2000 that was jobbed on an at-large bid? Yeah...that is what I thought.

Those good Akron teams or a few UB teams that failed to win MAC tourney didn't get an at-large because their resume was laughable. Good teams in the MAC need to beef up their schedule if they ever want to return to the at-large conversation.

But based on this thread, it seems a lot of folks are totally okay with playing bad schedules and just waiting for three nights in Cleveland to determine the one-bid league's rep.

That will never change unless scheduling changes.

So go ahead and throw the dead horse comments at me...I don't care.

You keep enjoying relatively meaningless basketball for 4 months a season and keep beating that "MAC will always be a one-bid league".

They will be as long as they continue to schedule the way they do. Even a 27-3 Ohio team that loses MAC title game and barely received a Top 25 vote all season won't earn at-large bid when their best win is at Iona.

So yeah....keep playing Marietta. Because it obviously doesn't matter.

Last Edited: 6/27/2017 1:41:53 PM by bshot44

Buckeye to Bobcat
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 6/27/2017 2:15:37 PM

I'll come out and say it. The conference has been hurt by the power teams in the state of Ohio not throwing the MAC schools on the schedule. I remember as a kid when Miami would get Dayton, Xavier, and Cincinnati on the schedule every year. Every once in a while they pick one of them off. Cincinnati used to go all over the state and play the likes of Toledo and Ohio. Heck, I can remember the last time Ohio State went on the road to an Ohio school (December 5, 1998....Savage Hall Toledo wins). When the regional powers don't want to schedule MAC schools, it does us no favors in the at-large consideration, especially when these schools used to go on the road in-state.

So simply put, the reason why these schools won't schedule us anymore is because the MAC has gotten so bad that it jeopardizes its situation and standing for an at-large bid. When Miami is down, it does no favors for the conference as a whole, especially when these regional games has disappeared. Going out and getting WVU, Pittsburgh, Cincy, X, Dayton, Butler, WKU, Marshall on the schedule needs to be the goal for Ohio and for every MAC school we have those regional power schools that need to be on, whether at their place or neutral site. The point being is that these games need to occur, especially when fan interest is already waning because of the dis-interest in playing the little sisters of the poor from podunkville, louisiana.

bshot44
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 6/27/2017 3:18:21 PM

Buckeye to Bobcat wrote:

+1

Draw a 300 mile or so circle around Athens and try like hell to get some of those P6 schools on the schedule.

OSU, UC, X, UD, Butler, IU, Purdue, UK, UofL, Pitt, WVU, PSU, Tennessee, UVA, VT, UM, MSU are a handful of "regional" teams I'd love to throw on speed dial.

OU_Country
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 6/27/2017 3:35:10 PM

bshot44 wrote:

If this were the football board, I'd swear Monroe hacked your account. ;)

OU_Country
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 6/27/2017 3:39:18 PM

Buckeye to Bobcat wrote:

What that takes is playing more road games, and it doesn't seem that more road games are likely anytime soon. Getting any of those schools to consistently come to Athens is pretty damn tough, or they'd already be bringing them to Athens.

WKU, Marshall, even Murray State, Belmont, etc. are better than A-Sun, Sunbelt schools no one has an interest in. Still, even those require an interest from the other team to schedule home and home's.

bshot44
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 6/30/2017 11:59:03 AM

Did the MAC change their scheduling mandates since 2012-13? I don't think so?

Why can't Ohio schedule like they did that year consistently? Still had plenty of home games (10)...and 4 quality road games.

Doesn't seem like too much of a stretch.

http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2013/schedule/Ohio

OUVan
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 6/30/2017 1:53:43 PM

bshot44 wrote:

Did the MAC change their scheduling mandates since 2012-13? I don't think so?

It was actually 2013-14 that the scheduling mandate came down.

OU_Country
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 6/30/2017 2:01:21 PM

bshot44 wrote:

Something to consider is that 2012-2013 is the last year that the MAC had 16 conference games. Since 2013-14, they moved to 18. I would think that makes a difference in the way the schedule is done for everyone.

ou79
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 7/13/2017 11:54:09 AM

Food for thought. IUPUI just left the Summit for the Horizon. Further, in leaving the Summit IUPUI was released from all of its Summit games for this coming year (2017-18). Now all of those Summit schools (Denver, Omaha, IPFW, Western Illinois, Oral Roberts, South Dakota, South Dakota State and North Dakota State) are all looking to fill a 2 game hole in each of their schedules. So, try to get a home/away with any or some of those teams for this year and next.

mcbin
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 7/13/2017 5:56:30 PM

I'm not sure if we're short a game/two still or not, but from a fan's perspective, Denver is a pretty affordable flight from CMH as flights go. I visited there earlier in the year and it was a pretty good time. Lively nightlife, museums, etc. I'd like to go back next year :).

shabamon
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 7/13/2017 9:29:12 PM

Arkley says we go back to Marshall this year. It's the third of a four-game series. I also didn't know that Iona was a four-game series.

bshot44
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 7/14/2017 9:44:30 AM

OU_Country wrote:

bshot44 wrote:

That definitely makes a difference. Didn't take that into consideration. Good point.

According to Arkley, Saul would like to replace some of these Appy State, Southern, Jackson St type games with good home/homes with other decent mid-majors. I hope that is the case.

I have no problem scheduling 2-3 cupcakes....but when it's 5-6, that just waters down the schedule and makes it look as if you don't care about competing for at-large consideration.

I hope this discussion dissolves in the next few years as Saul gets entrenched as head coach and really builds a solid program.

But if we're still scuffling playing Tennessee Tech and Marietta .... along with Southern, Jackson State, Bryant and Appalachian St in 2020 .... I really have to question the legitimacy in which we go about scheduling

OU_Country
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RE: 16-17 Non-conference schedule

Posted: 7/14/2017 12:03:28 PM

shabamon wrote:

Arkley says we go back to Marshall this year. It's the third of a four-game series. I also didn't know that Iona was a four-game series.

Interesting that the Marshall 4 games was Home, away, away, home. I like the 4 games with Iona.

With Charleston, and assuming we see them play one of Iona, Marshall, WKU by December 1st, we're going to have a really good idea of what OUr team has for the conference season. Strong, strong start to the schedule.

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