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There was no conference tournament back then, so the league championship came down to the final game of the season, in Athens, against Bowling Green during sibs weekend. Some say there may have been as many as 17,000 jammed into the convo to see the Bobcats win. That was the high point. From then on, I've witnessed a slow, steady decline in our fortunes, much of it, maybe most of it from factors beyond our control. Yes, there, have been blips upward, sometimes by accident, others because we took chances. But for the most part it has been a gentle downward slope. The nadir came last month, and it pretty much crystallized things for me. Jaaron Simmons, who our coach said was the leader, the "alpha dog" whose 3 words would be worth 100 from the coaches, bailed on the program. I don't blame the kid for reasons I'll go into, but when your leader bails, it really says a lot about your program. It also sends a frightening message to all who remain behind. My guess is that some on the team have been wondering for weeks now, well, if Jaaron thought it best to leave, what am I doing here? And really, what am I as a fan doing here? When I started following the Bobcats, there may have been a dozen Division 1 leagues and the MAC was probably in the top 6 or eight. We could routinely schedule name brand teams into the convo. We played Ohio State every few years, sometimes in Athens. Now there are what, about 30 conferences now, and the MAC is an after thought, a Mid Major that only gets one bid into the NCAA tourney. No name brand team wants to play us in Athens because they've got little to gain and much to lose. and MAC schools? None are anywhere near being the top programs in their state (does anyone really think there is an Ohio MAC school that can consistently challenge OSU, Dayton of Xavier?). The schools are often based in small towns, none get statewide coverage. The gyms, with a couple exceptions, are small and rarely more than half filled. Student support? More like non-support. It's easy to see why. When I was in school, you usually had the choice of watching 2 games on Saturday. It's more like 30 today. There might have been 1 other during the week. Now, when the Bobcats are playing, you could just stay home and watch Kentucky, Kansas or Duke, or maybe all 3. And God help you if you are the best team in the MAC. Play just 1 bad half in the conference tourney, and no NCAA for you! I hate the conference tournament. So the deck is stacked. You can't better yourself by playing the "big schools" because the big schools with the recognizable names won't play you. And since you can't better yourself, you can't get into the NCAA tournament. And since you can't get into the tournament you can't get the best players. You're stuck in a vicious circle and there's very few ways out. Maybe you get lucky, the stars align right, you develop a good team, the kids don't transfer or go pro and you make a tourney run. But can it be sustained? You have to continue to get lucky, or you start taking chances. But if you are a small school taking chances, the NCAA will take a very dim view of you. I can't blame Simmons for leaving. Just like Keith Dambrot, he's seen the environment, and knows that better competition and a realistic shot at an NCAA tourney might be better for his post college career. But where does that leave me? Rooting for a program with no realistic chance of being a consistent Top 50 team or winning an NCAA tournament once every 5 or 6 years (notice I didn't say compete for an NCAA championship, I'm not greedy) Rooting for a team where the best players aren't necessarily 100% committed. Rooting for a team that's never able to bring the best competition to its home court. I've been rooting for that team for decades, and I'm just not getting that much enjoyment out of it any more. And from my reading of the tea leaves, I can't see the slow, gentle decline turning into an upward bounce anytime soon. Back to Top SBH General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Post Count: 3,746 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/1/2017 6:31:11 PM  I hear you, but what you might really be experiencing is disgust with what collegiate sports has become. In a growing number of cases, these kids aren't here for the "student athlete" experience or to be part of a "team" that represents a given school. As our former point guard was quoted as saying last week, "It's all about what's best for me." I'm equally disappointed and am finding my level of engagement waning each day. Back to Top giacomo General User Member Since: 11/20/2007 Post Count: 2,623 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/1/2017 6:40:14 PM  boo,hoo,hoo........Anyone who puts on the uniform for the Bobcats is giving it their all and I respect them. I enjoy following our team, win or lose. The few times I can get to Athens to watch a game is a wonderful experience, win or lose. Back to Top allen General User Member Since: 1/24/2006 Post Count: 4,630 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/1/2017 6:52:30 PM  brucecuth wrote: I started following Bobcat basketball during my freshman year in 1969. What a year. We defeated 4 Big 10 teams, including Purdue with Rick Mount. There was no conference tournament back then, so the league championship came down to the final game of the season, in Athens, against Bowling Green during sibs weekend. Some say there may have been as many as 17,000 jammed into the convo to see the Bobcats win. That was the high point. From then on, I've witnessed a slow, steady decline in our fortunes, much of it, maybe most of it from factors beyond our control. Yes, there, have been blips upward, sometimes by accident, others because we took chances. But for the most part it has been a gentle downward slope. The nadir came last month, and it pretty much crystallized things for me. Jaaron Simmons, who our coach said was the leader, the "alpha dog" whose 3 words would be worth 100 from the coaches, bailed on the program. I don't blame the kid for reasons I'll go into, but when your leader bails, it really says a lot about your program. It also sends a frightening message to all who remain behind. My guess is that some on the team have been wondering for weeks now, well, if Jaaron thought it best to leave, what am I doing here? And really, what am I as a fan doing here? When I started following the Bobcats, there may have been a dozen Division 1 leagues and the MAC was probably in the top 6 or eight. We could routinely schedule name brand teams into the convo. We played Ohio State every few years, sometimes in Athens. Now there are what, about 30 conferences now, and the MAC is an after thought, a Mid Major that only gets one bid into the NCAA tourney. No name brand team wants to play us in Athens because they've got little to gain and much to lose. and MAC schools? None are anywhere near being the top programs in their state (does anyone really think there is an Ohio MAC school that can consistently challenge OSU, Dayton of Xavier?). The schools are often based in small towns, none get statewide coverage. The gyms, with a couple exceptions, are small and rarely more than half filled. Student support? More like non-support. It's easy to see why. When I was in school, you usually had the choice of watching 2 games on Saturday. It's more like 30 today. There might have been 1 other during the week. Now, when the Bobcats are playing, you could just stay home and watch Kentucky, Kansas or Duke, or maybe all 3. And God help you if you are the best team in the MAC. Play just 1 bad half in the conference tourney, and no NCAA for you! I hate the conference tournament. So the deck is stacked. You can't better yourself by playing the "big schools" because the big schools with the recognizable names won't play you. And since you can't better yourself, you can't get into the NCAA tournament. And since you can't get into the tournament you can't get the best players. You're stuck in a vicious circle and there's very few ways out. Maybe you get lucky, the stars align right, you develop a good team, the kids don't transfer or go pro and you make a tourney run. But can it be sustained? You have to continue to get lucky, or you start taking chances. But if you are a small school taking chances, the NCAA will take a very dim view of you. I can't blame Simmons for leaving. Just like Keith Dambrot, he's seen the environment, and knows that better competition and a realistic shot at an NCAA tourney might be better for his post college career. But where does that leave me? Rooting for a program with no realistic chance of being a consistent Top 50 team or winning an NCAA tournament once every 5 or 6 years (notice I didn't say compete for an NCAA championship, I'm not greedy) Rooting for a team where the best players aren't necessarily 100% committed. Rooting for a team that's never able to bring the best competition to its home court. I've been rooting for that team for decades, and I'm just not getting that much enjoyment out of it any more. And from my reading of the tea leaves, I can't see the slow, gentle decline turning into an upward bounce anytime soon. I agree, I dislike the conterence tournaments. Big schools will play us, but they won't come to the convo. We have to make an effort to schedule good teams, we have to recruit better athletes and a tough nonconference schedule will help. The most important thing is that you have a coach that is a transformational leader, someone that can help you improve your game. The NCAA is full of system coaches, they bring in a system from a benchmark university and work on perfecting players performance within a system versus working on the individual players game. You need a coach that can do both. Jaaron went to Houston out of high school with a suspect jump shot, he transferred to Ohio and recalibrated and now is transferring to Michigan. He is a hopper, he is doing what he think is best for himself, he does not want to lead. You need to teach leadership and accountability, players have to be family and then it is hard to leave for so-called greener pastures. We can get better schedules. Last year, we had a development schedule, a schedule that was set up to easily win 20 games, just like this years football schedule. You have to have 5-7 strong nonconference games now. I have seen Cleveland State do it plenty of times. Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes Back to Top The Better Ohio Bobcat General User Member Since: 3/28/2017 Location: Athens, OH Post Count: 196 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/1/2017 7:03:08 PM  allen wrote: brucecuth wrote: I started following Bobcat basketball during my freshman year in 1969. What a year. We defeated 4 Big 10 teams, including Purdue with Rick Mount. There was no conference tournament back then, so the league championship came down to the final game of the season, in Athens, against Bowling Green during sibs weekend. Some say there may have been as many as 17,000 jammed into the convo to see the Bobcats win. That was the high point. From then on, I've witnessed a slow, steady decline in our fortunes, much of it, maybe most of it from factors beyond our control. Yes, there, have been blips upward, sometimes by accident, others because we took chances. But for the most part it has been a gentle downward slope. The nadir came last month, and it pretty much crystallized things for me. Jaaron Simmons, who our coach said was the leader, the "alpha dog" whose 3 words would be worth 100 from the coaches, bailed on the program. I don't blame the kid for reasons I'll go into, but when your leader bails, it really says a lot about your program. It also sends a frightening message to all who remain behind. My guess is that some on the team have been wondering for weeks now, well, if Jaaron thought it best to leave, what am I doing here? And really, what am I as a fan doing here? When I started following the Bobcats, there may have been a dozen Division 1 leagues and the MAC was probably in the top 6 or eight. We could routinely schedule name brand teams into the convo. We played Ohio State every few years, sometimes in Athens. Now there are what, about 30 conferences now, and the MAC is an after thought, a Mid Major that only gets one bid into the NCAA tourney. No name brand team wants to play us in Athens because they've got little to gain and much to lose. and MAC schools? None are anywhere near being the top programs in their state (does anyone really think there is an Ohio MAC school that can consistently challenge OSU, Dayton of Xavier?). The schools are often based in small towns, none get statewide coverage. The gyms, with a couple exceptions, are small and rarely more than half filled. Student support? More like non-support. It's easy to see why. When I was in school, you usually had the choice of watching 2 games on Saturday. It's more like 30 today. There might have been 1 other during the week. Now, when the Bobcats are playing, you could just stay home and watch Kentucky, Kansas or Duke, or maybe all 3. And God help you if you are the best team in the MAC. Play just 1 bad half in the conference tourney, and no NCAA for you! I hate the conference tournament. So the deck is stacked. You can't better yourself by playing the "big schools" because the big schools with the recognizable names won't play you. And since you can't better yourself, you can't get into the NCAA tournament. And since you can't get into the tournament you can't get the best players. You're stuck in a vicious circle and there's very few ways out. Maybe you get lucky, the stars align right, you develop a good team, the kids don't transfer or go pro and you make a tourney run. But can it be sustained? You have to continue to get lucky, or you start taking chances. But if you are a small school taking chances, the NCAA will take a very dim view of you. I can't blame Simmons for leaving. Just like Keith Dambrot, he's seen the environment, and knows that better competition and a realistic shot at an NCAA tourney might be better for his post college career. But where does that leave me? Rooting for a program with no realistic chance of being a consistent Top 50 team or winning an NCAA tournament once every 5 or 6 years (notice I didn't say compete for an NCAA championship, I'm not greedy) Rooting for a team where the best players aren't necessarily 100% committed. Rooting for a team that's never able to bring the best competition to its home court. I've been rooting for that team for decades, and I'm just not getting that much enjoyment out of it any more. And from my reading of the tea leaves, I can't see the slow, gentle decline turning into an upward bounce anytime soon. I agree, I dislike the conterence tournaments. Big schools will play us, but they won't come to the convo. We have to make an effort to schedule good teams, we have to recruit better athletes and a tough nonconference schedule will help. The most important thing is that you have a coach that is a transformational leader, someone that can help you improve your game. The NCAA is full of system coaches, they bring in a system from a benchmark university and work on perfecting players performance within a system versus working on the individual players game. You need a coach that can do both. Jaaron went to Houston out of high school with a suspect jump shot, he transferred to Ohio and recalibrated and now is transferring to Michigan. He is a hopper, he is doing what he think is best for himself, he does not want to lead. You need to teach leadership and accountability, players have to be family and then it is hard to leave for so-called greener pastures. We can get better schedules. Last year, we had a development schedule, a schedule that was set up to easily win 20 games, just like this years football schedule. You have to have 5-7 strong nonconference games now. I have seen Cleveland State do it plenty of times. The conference tournaments are the 2nd best part of the season, second to March Madness. It's like a mini march madness to get the players ready for the real deal. This way the best TOURNAMENT team makes it to the NCAA tournament. Back to Top FlashGary General User Member Since: 6/18/2013 Location: Long Island, NY Post Count: 373 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/1/2017 7:41:27 PM  brucecuth wrote: I started following Bobcat basketball during my freshman year in 1969. What a year. We defeated 4 Big 10 teams, including Purdue with Rick Mount. There was no conference tournament back then, so the league championship came down to the final game of the season, in Athens, against Bowling Green during sibs weekend. Some say there may have been as many as 17,000 jammed into the convo to see the Bobcats win. That was the high point. From then on, I've witnessed a slow, steady decline in our fortunes, much of it, maybe most of it from factors beyond our control. Yes, there, have been blips upward, sometimes by accident, others because we took chances. But for the most part it has been a gentle downward slope. The nadir came last month, and it pretty much crystallized things for me. Jaaron Simmons, who our coach said was the leader, the "alpha dog" whose 3 words would be worth 100 from the coaches, bailed on the program. I don't blame the kid for reasons I'll go into, but when your leader bails, it really says a lot about your program. It also sends a frightening message to all who remain behind. My guess is that some on the team have been wondering for weeks now, well, if Jaaron thought it best to leave, what am I doing here? And really, what am I as a fan doing here? When I started following the Bobcats, there may have been a dozen Division 1 leagues and the MAC was probably in the top 6 or eight. We could routinely schedule name brand teams into the convo. We played Ohio State every few years, sometimes in Athens. Now there are what, about 30 conferences now, and the MAC is an after thought, a Mid Major that only gets one bid into the NCAA tourney. No name brand team wants to play us in Athens because they've got little to gain and much to lose. and MAC schools? None are anywhere near being the top programs in their state (does anyone really think there is an Ohio MAC school that can consistently challenge OSU, Dayton of Xavier?). The schools are often based in small towns, none get statewide coverage. The gyms, with a couple exceptions, are small and rarely more than half filled. Student support? More like non-support. It's easy to see why. When I was in school, you usually had the choice of watching 2 games on Saturday. It's more like 30 today. There might have been 1 other during the week. Now, when the Bobcats are playing, you could just stay home and watch Kentucky, Kansas or Duke, or maybe all 3. And God help you if you are the best team in the MAC. Play just 1 bad half in the conference tourney, and no NCAA for you! I hate the conference tournament. So the deck is stacked. You can't better yourself by playing the "big schools" because the big schools with the recognizable names won't play you. And since you can't better yourself, you can't get into the NCAA tournament. And since you can't get into the tournament you can't get the best players. You're stuck in a vicious circle and there's very few ways out. Maybe you get lucky, the stars align right, you develop a good team, the kids don't transfer or go pro and you make a tourney run. But can it be sustained? You have to continue to get lucky, or you start taking chances. But if you are a small school taking chances, the NCAA will take a very dim view of you. I can't blame Simmons for leaving. Just like Keith Dambrot, he's seen the environment, and knows that better competition and a realistic shot at an NCAA tourney might be better for his post college career. But where does that leave me? Rooting for a program with no realistic chance of being a consistent Top 50 team or winning an NCAA tournament once every 5 or 6 years (notice I didn't say compete for an NCAA championship, I'm not greedy) Rooting for a team where the best players aren't necessarily 100% committed. Rooting for a team that's never able to bring the best competition to its home court. I've been rooting for that team for decades, and I'm just not getting that much enjoyment out of it any more. And from my reading of the tea leaves, I can't see the slow, gentle decline turning into an upward bounce anytime soon. I most certainly feel your pain, brucecuth! I arrived in Athens in 1971-72, and was in an overflowing Convo the night still-in-the-MAC Marshall came in with the monster team that included Russell Lee, Mike D'Antoni, Ty Collins and Randy Noll. I, too, remember what it was like to have big teams with big players and big crowds in the Convo--Va Tech's Allan Bristow, Wisconsin's Leon Howard and the Hughes twins, Penn State's Ron Brown, Missouri's John Brown and Willie Smith, Cincinnati's Derrick Dickey and Lloyd Batts, Fairfield's Richie O'Connor, Ohio State's Larry Bolden, Northwestern's Billy McKinney (although we had no idea at the time as it was his first college game) immediately come to mind. And having had inside info into the program's recruiting throughout the years, my frustration is heightened by realizing how close we could have come, and in some cases should have come, to really cracking that 50 top several times. I really thought that Saul Phillips might be the guy who finally would get it done. And maybe he will. But this season took something out of me. So I know how you feel. It's sort of like Charlie Brown with Lucy holding the football. You think this time it might be for real, then John Groce leaves behind a Sweet 16 team returning intact and Caris LeVert doesn't come. Or Jaaron Simmons leaves when you thought next season had a lot of promise. I'm not blaming anyone. Coaches and kids have to do what they believe is right for them. But the fact of the matter is I just don't think I have that much fight left in me. I'll continue to follow the team, root for the team, watch the young guys grow and mature and enjoy the games individually, realizing we have the capability to get to the 20-win plateau practically on a yearly basis. But as for continued visions of grandeur...as for how you are feeling, I do believe I understand. Back to Top cbus cat fan General User Member Since: 12/2/2011 Post Count: 1,169 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/1/2017 7:51:07 PM  Brucecuth I hear you and I would hope everyone would respect your sentiments. I disagree with your wanting to get rid of the conference tournament, but I have sympathy for a lot of what you are saying. When people feel something is unfair, rigged or isn't what it once was in their estimation, they often cut back, whether it be a sports team, restaurant or even a band. Professional sports thrives off gimmicks. Most major league baseball teams see their higher attendance games based on some sort of giveaway, musical performance etc. Gone are the days people just showed up for the game. Look at some of the former big time East Coast college basketball programs that have seen their attendance plummet. They feel their programs can't compete with some of the big boy programs and the fans just leave. Throw in high ticket prices, fights in the stands, profanity and drunkenness, especially in professional sports, and many spend their money elsewhere. Anyone who lives near Columbus knows how ridiculous it is seeing all these various personal license plates that spell out Ohio State Buckeyes in some sort of fashion. I know a couple of folks, who even are Bobcat grads that sport such silliness on their vehicles. It is estimated that while 100,000 or so folks can fit into the Horseshoe, just as many tailgate outside. They might not be able to tell the difference between Woody Hayes and Woody Harrelson, but they are there in their scarlet and gray because it is the place to be. If Ohio State ever tanked in the Big Ten, that would all change in a heartbeat. The college grad transfer rule is probably going to change, there are a plethora of stories from complaining coaches, I have linked to one (see below.) However, perhaps because of a myriad of other options, live sports in this country has jumped the shark. Think of your town/city's storied restaurant that one day just closes. It may have been sold, a new family member my have run it into the ground, but whatever the case, loyalty only lasts so long when you feel you are getting cheated or short changed, and so it is with certain sports as well. I love going to Bobcat games (don't even mind the drive) but with all that is going on, I can see how some people might just say enough. It has been 30 years since I graduated and I still look forward to football and basketball season. However, we all have various responsibilities that probably keep us from going more than we would like (family, job, time etc.) Unfortunately, when you feel like you are being cheated, it makes it even harder to find the time. http://www.cleveland.com/sports/college/index.ssf/2015/04... Last Edited: 5/1/2017 8:03:02 PM by cbus cat fan Back to Top The Optimist General User Member Since: 3/16/2007 Location: CLE Post Count: 5,552 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/1/2017 11:17:08 PM  If you started following Ohio in 1969-1970, you watched Ohio make the NCAA Tournament and lose to Notre Dame by 30. If you started following Ohio in 2004-2005, you watched Ohio make the NCAA Tournament and lose to Florida by 5. If you started following Ohio in 1969-1970, these were the results the following 12 years: 1 20+ win season 5 other winning seasons 6 losing seasons (3 NCAA Tournament games between 3 teams. 0 wins) If you started following Ohio in 2004-2005, these were the results the following 12 years: 7 20+ win seasons 3 19 win seasons 2 losing seasons (6 NCAA Tournament games between 3 teams. 3 wins) ... If you don't like the lack of player loyalty in the NCAA today, that's your choice. That's a separate issue from the "slow, gentle decline" you claim is plaguing Ohio. Ohio's basketball program has had MORE success in the last 15 years than it had in the 15 years before that or the 15 years before that. Like most, I was extremely disappointed to learn of Jaaron Simmons' decision to transfer. However, one player leaving isn't going to destroy this program. Jeremy Fears led us to a NCAA Tournament in 2004-2005. Then he left mid-season the following year and transferred. His freshman teammate Leon Williams stayed and played 4 years for Ohio. Armon Bassett led us to a NCAA Tournament win over Georgetown in 2009-2010. He was suspended from the team after the season and never returned to the team. His freshman teammate DJ Cooper stayed and played 4 years at Ohio. Cooper would go on to lead us to the Sweet 16 including a win over Michigan in round 1. We return 3/5 of our starting lineup from last season. Ohio had already signed a highly-touted freshman point guard for next season before Jaaron even announced his intent to transfer. That's not tea leaves, that's reality. I've seen crazier things happen. Back to Top allen General User Member Since: 1/24/2006 Post Count: 4,630 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/2/2017 12:46:09 AM  The Optimist wrote: If you started following Ohio in 1969-1970, you watched Ohio make the NCAA Tournament and lose to Notre Dame by 30. If you started following Ohio in 2004-2005, you watched Ohio make the NCAA Tournament and lose to Florida by 5. If you started following Ohio in 1969-1970, these were the results the following 12 years: 1 20+ win season 5 other winning seasons 6 losing seasons (3 NCAA Tournament games between 3 teams. 0 wins) If you started following Ohio in 2004-2005, these were the results the following 12 years: 7 20+ win seasons 3 19 win seasons 2 losing seasons (6 NCAA Tournament games between 3 teams. 3 wins) ... If you don't like the lack of player loyalty in the NCAA today, that's your choice. That's a separate issue from the "slow, gentle decline" you claim is plaguing Ohio. Ohio's basketball program has had MORE success in the last 15 years than it had in the 15 years before that or the 15 years before that. Like most, I was extremely disappointed to learn of Jaaron Simmons' decision to transfer. However, one player leaving isn't going to destroy this program. Jeremy Fears led us to a NCAA Tournament in 2004-2005. Then he left mid-season the following year and transferred. His freshman teammate Leon Williams stayed and played 4 years for Ohio. Armon Bassett led us to a NCAA Tournament win over Georgetown in 2009-2010. He was suspended from the team after the season and never returned to the team. His freshman teammate DJ Cooper stayed and played 4 years at Ohio. Cooper would go on to lead us to the Sweet 16 including a win over Michigan in round 1. We return 3/5 of our starting lineup from last season. Ohio had already signed a highly-touted freshman point guard for next season before Jaaron even announced his intent to transfer. That's not tea leaves, that's reality. +1 however, I do agree that we need to schedule better. Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes Back to Top mid70sbobcat General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Post Count: 654 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/2/2017 7:34:18 AM  The Optimist wrote: If you started following Ohio in 1969-1970, you watched Ohio make the NCAA Tournament and lose to Notre Dame by 30. If you started following Ohio in 2004-2005, you watched Ohio make the NCAA Tournament and lose to Florida by 5. If you started following Ohio in 1969-1970, these were the results the following 12 years: 1 20+ win season 5 other winning seasons 6 losing seasons (3 NCAA Tournament games between 3 teams. 0 wins) If you started following Ohio in 2004-2005, these were the results the following 12 years: 7 20+ win seasons 3 19 win seasons 2 losing seasons (6 NCAA Tournament games between 3 teams. 3 wins) ... If you don't like the lack of player loyalty in the NCAA today, that's your choice. That's a separate issue from the "slow, gentle decline" you claim is plaguing Ohio. Ohio's basketball program has had MORE success in the last 15 years than it had in the 15 years before that or the 15 years before that. Like most, I was extremely disappointed to learn of Jaaron Simmons' decision to transfer. However, one player leaving isn't going to destroy this program. Jeremy Fears led us to a NCAA Tournament in 2004-2005. Then he left mid-season the following year and transferred. His freshman teammate Leon Williams stayed and played 4 years for Ohio. Armon Bassett led us to a NCAA Tournament win over Georgetown in 2009-2010. He was suspended from the team after the season and never returned to the team. His freshman teammate DJ Cooper stayed and played 4 years at Ohio. Cooper would go on to lead us to the Sweet 16 including a win over Michigan in round 1. We return 3/5 of our starting lineup from last season. Ohio had already signed a highly-touted freshman point guard for next season before Jaaron even announced his intent to transfer. That's not tea leaves, that's reality. Your analysis I think is a bit flawed. First, in referencing the 69-70 and 12 year subsequent period we played a max of 26 games a year. Since 2004-05 it's been 32-35 games a year. Naturally we should have more 20+ seasons when we're playing an extra 7 or 8 games a year. Next, our schedule back in the 70's blows away what it is today. And times have changed with the NCAA and the size of the field. The NCAA tournament expanded its field of teams from 25 to 32 in 1975, to 48 in 1980, to 64 in 1985, and to 68 teams in 2011. As far as success over the years Jim Snyder was a long time fixture in Athens and well respected. Later we had Danny Nee who did well in the 80's. These days too many coaches jump at the first bigger $$$$ offer they see. And it often comes back to haunt them (Groce and probably Christian too). Back to Top OUVan General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Bethesda, MD Post Count: 5,580 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/2/2017 7:54:32 AM  giacomo wrote: boo,hoo,hoo........Anyone who puts on the uniform for the Bobcats is giving it their all and I respect them. I enjoy following our team, win or lose. The few times I can get to Athens to watch a game is a wonderful experience, win or lose. I agree and have said as much on here recently. I get frustrated with the lack of competitive fairness of it all but instead of giving up on the Bobcats I've given up on the Power Conferences. I essentially now only watch midmajors and most of that is the MAC. Every MAC conference season is competitive and fun. Back to Top GoCats105 General User Member Since: 1/31/2006 Location: Seattle, WA Post Count: 6,896 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/2/2017 7:59:02 AM  OUVan wrote: giacomo wrote: boo,hoo,hoo........Anyone who puts on the uniform for the Bobcats is giving it their all and I respect them. I enjoy following our team, win or lose. The few times I can get to Athens to watch a game is a wonderful experience, win or lose. I agree and have said as much on here recently. I get frustrated with the lack of competitive fairness of it all but instead of giving up on the Bobcats I've given up on the Power Conferences. I essentially now only watch midmajors and most of that is the MAC. Every MAC conference season is competitive and fun. Related: I love basketball, Ohio University and Ohio University basketball. That's enough to keep me around. The rest is just noise. Back to Top ShoreCat General User Member Since: 3/10/2011 Location: Avon Lake, OH Post Count: 207 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/2/2017 8:40:12 AM  So in reading comments like this, along with the constant ridiculous banter on the football board about how if I don't expect a MAC championship than I'm wallowing in mediocrity, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm alone in my belief that athletics was just a small part of my experience at OU and I could care less how successful we are. Don't get me wrong. I like winning and I like the exposure we get with winning. But during my time at OU from 1990-1995, I got just as much enjoyment watching Gary Trent dominate the MAC as I did watching Tom Dubs and company get their butts kicked at Peden Stadium. Some of my favorite times at OU were catching a buzz before a football game, spending 3 hours with 200 or so of my fellow students and enjoying an afternoon in the most beautiful setting in the USA. I also sat with dozens of people watching OU baseball and volleyball. Right now, I'm a die-hard Cleveland sports fan but I have just as much fun watching the Lake Erie Crushers Independent league team in Avon. I get people wanting to win. I get people wanting a successful program. But there is something about enjoying the experience and enjoying Athens that made wins and losses less important to me. I will always support the Cats whether they are in the top 25 or having a winless year. Back to Top Andrew Ruck General User Member Since: 12/22/2004 Location: Columbus, OH Post Count: 4,688 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/2/2017 8:51:53 AM  Part of the issues you lay out are related to a growing need by fans to be nationally relevant and competitive at all times. It contributes to the poor fan support. Why can't we just enjoy supporting our team game by game, regardless of the standing they are in at the moment? Andrew Ruck B.B.A. 2003 Back to Top The Optimist General User Member Since: 3/16/2007 Location: CLE Post Count: 5,552 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/2/2017 8:58:30 AM  mid70sbobcat wrote: Your analysis I think is a bit flawed. First, in referencing the 69-70 and 12 year subsequent period we played a max of 26 games a year. Since 2004-05 it's been 32-35 games a year. Naturally we should have more 20+ seasons when we're playing an extra 7 or 8 games a year. Next, our schedule back in the 70's blows away what it is today. And times have changed with the NCAA and the size of the field. The NCAA tournament expanded its field of teams from 25 to 32 in 1975, to 48 in 1980, to 64 in 1985, and to 68 teams in 2011. Rather than raw win totals, I'll show win % over the same timeframe. We play more games today, but we win more of the games we do play. 69... 04... 80% 78% 71% 71% 62% 68% 59% 66% 59% 66% 58% 63% 48% 61% 46% 59% 42% 59% 35% 54% 31% 47% 26% 33% Total Total 51% 60% The NCAA Tournament field has changed, and that has been GOOD for Ohio, not bad... We lost to Notre Dame by 30 and lost to Marquette by 24 in 1973 then played them again two years later and lost by 26. vs. We lost to Florida by 5, beat Georgetown by 14, lost to Tennessee by 15, beat Michigan by 5, beat South Florida by 6 and lost to North Carolina by 8 in OT. Quote: As far as success over the years Jim Snyder was a long time fixture in Athens and well respected. Later we had Danny Nee who did well in the 80's. These days too many coaches jump at the first bigger $$$$ offer they see. And it often comes back to haunt them (Groce and probably Christian too). Funny you mention Danny Nee... Didn't he leave Ohio for Nebraska? Same timeframe Jim Snyder, Dale Bandy, Danny Nee Tim O'Shea, John Groce, Jim Christian, Saul Phillips 3 coaches vs 4 coaches. Similar to player loyalty, I would love for our coaches to stick around. I hope Saul Phillips has a career similar to Jim Snyder who coached Ohio for 25 years, but if you give me the choice between Dale Bandy coaching Ohio for 6 years (5 losing seasons) and John Groce or Danny Nee who led Ohio to NCAA Tournament wins but left for bigger jobs, I'll take the NCAA wins. Last Edited: 5/2/2017 4:08:02 PM by The Optimist I've seen crazier things happen. Back to Top ShoreCat General User Member Since: 3/10/2011 Location: Avon Lake, OH Post Count: 207 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/2/2017 9:15:19 AM  My sentiments echo Mr. Ruck's post. Why can't we treat OU athletics the way my dog treats me. Unconditional love. Regardless of how well or not well we are performing. Go to Athens. Enjoy the experience regardless of wins and losses. Bleed Green and White all the time. Back to Top PhiTau74 General User Member Since: 8/6/2010 Location: Columbia, SC Post Count: 455 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/2/2017 10:20:24 AM  Although I am pretty disappointed in "Saul ball" the first 3 years you just never know how quickly a great team can come together. Its not like professional sports teams taking years to build it can happen in one or two years. Case in point are the Gamecocks of South Carolina, hadn't even been to the NCAA tournament since 2004 and in a city that is a football city. All the pieces just fell in place with 2 outstanding senior guards, a junior, sophmore and freshman starting 5. If Saul ball is to work it starts with 2 really good guards like the Bobcats had in 11-12, my only concern is having a true big for defense and rebounding. If DT can turn into a rebounding/defensive beast we can be a really good team and great the following year.. Back to Top giacomo General User Member Since: 11/20/2007 Post Count: 2,623 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/2/2017 10:22:05 AM  Optimist, his name is Dale Bandy. I played for him and he was and still is a great guy. Back to Top GroverBall General User Member Since: 12/3/2012 Location: Athens, OH Post Count: 1,241 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/2/2017 10:50:16 AM  brucecuth wrote: I started following Bobcat basketball during my freshman year in 1969. What a year. We defeated 4 Big 10 teams, including Purdue with Rick Mount. There was no conference tournament back then, so the league championship came down to the final game of the season, in Athens, against Bowling Green during sibs weekend. Some say there may have been as many as 17,000 jammed into the convo to see the Bobcats win. That was the high point. From then on, I've witnessed a slow, steady decline in our fortunes, much of it, maybe most of it from factors beyond our control. Yes, there, have been blips upward, sometimes by accident, others because we took chances. But for the most part it has been a gentle downward slope. The nadir came last month, and it pretty much crystallized things for me. Jaaron Simmons, who our coach said was the leader, the "alpha dog" whose 3 words would be worth 100 from the coaches, bailed on the program. I don't blame the kid for reasons I'll go into, but when your leader bails, it really says a lot about your program. It also sends a frightening message to all who remain behind. My guess is that some on the team have been wondering for weeks now, well, if Jaaron thought it best to leave, what am I doing here? And really, what am I as a fan doing here? When I started following the Bobcats, there may have been a dozen Division 1 leagues and the MAC was probably in the top 6 or eight. We could routinely schedule name brand teams into the convo. We played Ohio State every few years, sometimes in Athens. Now there are what, about 30 conferences now, and the MAC is an after thought, a Mid Major that only gets one bid into the NCAA tourney. No name brand team wants to play us in Athens because they've got little to gain and much to lose. and MAC schools? None are anywhere near being the top programs in their state (does anyone really think there is an Ohio MAC school that can consistently challenge OSU, Dayton of Xavier?). The schools are often based in small towns, none get statewide coverage. The gyms, with a couple exceptions, are small and rarely more than half filled. Student support? More like non-support. It's easy to see why. When I was in school, you usually had the choice of watching 2 games on Saturday. It's more like 30 today. There might have been 1 other during the week. Now, when the Bobcats are playing, you could just stay home and watch Kentucky, Kansas or Duke, or maybe all 3. And God help you if you are the best team in the MAC. Play just 1 bad half in the conference tourney, and no NCAA for you! I hate the conference tournament. So the deck is stacked. You can't better yourself by playing the "big schools" because the big schools with the recognizable names won't play you. And since you can't better yourself, you can't get into the NCAA tournament. And since you can't get into the tournament you can't get the best players. You're stuck in a vicious circle and there's very few ways out. Maybe you get lucky, the stars align right, you develop a good team, the kids don't transfer or go pro and you make a tourney run. But can it be sustained? You have to continue to get lucky, or you start taking chances. But if you are a small school taking chances, the NCAA will take a very dim view of you. I can't blame Simmons for leaving. Just like Keith Dambrot, he's seen the environment, and knows that better competition and a realistic shot at an NCAA tourney might be better for his post college career. But where does that leave me? Rooting for a program with no realistic chance of being a consistent Top 50 team or winning an NCAA tournament once every 5 or 6 years (notice I didn't say compete for an NCAA championship, I'm not greedy) Rooting for a team where the best players aren't necessarily 100% committed. Rooting for a team that's never able to bring the best competition to its home court. I've been rooting for that team for decades, and I'm just not getting that much enjoyment out of it any more. And from my reading of the tea leaves, I can't see the slow, gentle decline turning into an upward bounce anytime soon. No disrespect intended, but why are you "about" done? Why not just be done and put the frustration you are experiencing behind you? Instead of BA, find some good books? Instead of following the team(s), spend more time conversing with friends and family? If you examine the reasons you used "about," you may find some of the things that others have shared here. Love the game, love the 'Cats, what else is there to say? Back to Top BillyTheCat General User Member Since: 10/6/2012 Post Count: 9,454 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/2/2017 11:06:25 AM  The Optimist wrote: If you started following Ohio in 1969-1970, you watched Ohio make the NCAA Tournament and lose to Notre Dame by 30. If you started following Ohio in 2004-2005, you watched Ohio make the NCAA Tournament and lose to Florida by 5. If you started following Ohio in 1969-1970, these were the results the following 12 years: 1 20+ win season 5 other winning seasons 6 losing seasons (3 NCAA Tournament games between 3 teams. 0 wins) If you started following Ohio in 2004-2005, these were the results the following 12 years: 7 20+ win seasons 3 19 win seasons 2 losing seasons (6 NCAA Tournament games between 3 teams. 3 wins) ... If you don't like the lack of player loyalty in the NCAA today, that's your choice. That's a separate issue from the "slow, gentle decline" you claim is plaguing Ohio. Ohio's basketball program has had MORE success in the last 15 years than it had in the 15 years before that or the 15 years before that. Like most, I was extremely disappointed to learn of Jaaron Simmons' decision to transfer. However, one player leaving isn't going to destroy this program. Jeremy Fears led us to a NCAA Tournament in 2004-2005. Then he left mid-season the following year and transferred. His freshman teammate Leon Williams stayed and played 4 years for Ohio. Armon Bassett led us to a NCAA Tournament win over Georgetown in 2009-2010. He was suspended from the team after the season and never returned to the team. His freshman teammate DJ Cooper stayed and played 4 years at Ohio. Cooper would go on to lead us to the Sweet 16 including a win over Michigan in round 1. We return 3/5 of our starting lineup from last season. Ohio had already signed a highly-touted freshman point guard for next season before Jaaron even announced his intent to transfer. That's not tea leaves, that's reality. let's not use 20 games as a benchmark when comparing the two eras....20 wins today is NOTHING like 20 wins in the 60's, 70's or 80's. Back to Top Jeff McKinney Moderator Member Since: 11/12/2004 Post Count: 6,038 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/2/2017 11:39:45 AM  I'm on the side of those disagreeing with brucecuth. We have never had the resources to be a consistent top 50 team. If that's the standard, it's gonna be a very disappointing experience for a fan. Im reading Seth Davis' bio of John Wooden. It's interesting that the most intense criticism he ever received from alumni came after he had won a few national championships...people criticizing him for not winning by big enough margins, people saying he wasn't recruiting good enough, that he had dead weight on the bench. Fan psychology is very interesting. Back to Top OU_Country General User Member Since: 12/6/2005 Location: On the road between Athens and Madison County Post Count: 8,320 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/2/2017 11:45:06 AM  allen wrote: I agree, I dislike the conterence tournaments. Big schools will play us, but they won't come to the convo. We have to make an effort to schedule good teams, we have to recruit better athletes and a tough nonconference schedule will help. The most important thing is that you have a coach that is a transformational leader, someone that can help you improve your game. The NCAA is full of system coaches, they bring in a system from a benchmark university and work on perfecting players performance within a system versus working on the individual players game. You need a coach that can do both. Jaaron went to Houston out of high school with a suspect jump shot, he transferred to Ohio and recalibrated and now is transferring to Michigan. He is a hopper, he is doing what he think is best for himself, he does not want to lead. You need to teach leadership and accountability, players have to be family and then it is hard to leave for so-called greener pastures. We can get better schedules. Last year, we had a development schedule, a schedule that was set up to easily win 20 games, just like this years football schedule. You have to have 5-7 strong nonconference games now. I have seen Cleveland State do it plenty of times. Expand on the Cleveland State example. Where did they schedule so well that they 1) got an at-large bid, and 2) were able to keep all their good players in the current transfer environment? From where I sit, they are far worse off than Ohio is now. Very far. In 2010-11, and 2011-12, they had decent non-conf schedules and still ended up in the NIT. I didn't go back any farther than that, but I also don't think any farther back than that is relevant to where things are now in 2017 and beyond. (note, I'm not belittling the NIT, merely pointing out that is where a decent schedule got them.) You can scroll through the years of schedules and results here. http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/team/schedule... Back to Top OU_Country General User Member Since: 12/6/2005 Location: On the road between Athens and Madison County Post Count: 8,320 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/2/2017 12:00:50 PM  Andrew Ruck wrote: Part of the issues you lay out are related to a growing need by fans to be nationally relevant and competitive at all times. It contributes to the poor fan support. Why can't we just enjoy supporting our team game by game, regardless of the standing they are in at the moment? BayCat wrote: My sentiments echo Mr. Ruck's post. Why can't we treat OU athletics the way my dog treats me. Unconditional love. Regardless of how well or not well we are performing. Go to Athens. Enjoy the experience regardless of wins and losses. Bleed Green and White all the time. This is a winning argument in my book. Don't most of us support Ohio Basketball even if they aren't a MAC Champion? As an added example, I've been a Cincinnati hoops fan for about 18-20 years, longer than I've been a Bobcat. There were some REALLY lean years early on with Mick Cronin. My level of being a fan hasn't waned. I still try to get to a game or two when I'm not coming to Athens. I still enjoy it, and spending the day with family and friends. In all, I was in an arena all but about 3 weekends during hoops season last year. 2-3 I had no rooting interest. The rest I did. One of the best times was in Ann Arbor, and I didn't care who won. At the end of the day, this is my entertainment. As I get older, I find myself trying to see it that way. Getting angry if they lose a game really means that I lose, because I'm not appreciating the fun I should have had all day while being in Athens, or Cincinnati, or any other town watching the game, having an adult soda, with good friends and family. You can be a heel and say that's accepting losing, or mediocrity, or whatever. But the game result, and the team success isn't most important in MY life. Following the team and rooting them on towards success is my enjoyment, and part of my life. Back to Top OU_Country General User Member Since: 12/6/2005 Location: On the road between Athens and Madison County Post Count: 8,320 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/2/2017 12:17:55 PM  PhiTau74 wrote: Although I am pretty disappointed in "Saul ball" the first 3 years you just never know how quickly a great team can come together. Its not like professional sports teams taking years to build it can happen in one or two years. Case in point are the Gamecocks of South Carolina, hadn't even been to the NCAA tournament since 2004 and in a city that is a football city. All the pieces just fell in place with 2 outstanding senior guards, a junior, sophmore and freshman starting 5. If Saul ball is to work it starts with 2 really good guards like the Bobcats had in 11-12, my only concern is having a true big for defense and rebounding. If DT can turn into a rebounding/defensive beast we can be a really good team and great the following year.. First, I agree with you in regards to the importance of guard play related to playing well at the end of the year. With that in mind, we should be excited for the future of Bobcat basketball. Kirk, Butler, Dartis, Laster, Gollon will provide interesting combinations at guard for Ohio. What I don't understand is the disappointment in Saul Ball. I feel like the team has progressively gotten better every year under Saul & Co. I feel like, short of one player in particular, recruiting has been successful with freshmen contributing right from the start. There haven't been any PR issues with men's basketball, and the caliber of recruits has, in my opinion, been good. This upcoming class will tell us a lot, but at the moment, they all appear to be very good players. They've fallen just short of being in the MAC title game two years in a row. And we know the goal is NCAA Tournaments, not rebuilding a mess. With all that, while everyone has a different point of view, I guess I don't see what's been disappointing. Back to Top OUVan General User Member Since: 12/20/2004 Location: Bethesda, MD Post Count: 5,580 Status: Offline     RE: I'm about done...    Posted: 5/2/2017 12:34:37 PM  Andrew Ruck wrote: Part of the issues you lay out are related to a growing need by fans to be nationally relevant and competitive at all times. It contributes to the poor fan support. Why can't we just enjoy supporting our team game by game, regardless of the standing they are in at the moment? Agree. I enjoy watching basketball at much lower levels than Ohio Bobcat basketball. As for Jaaron Simmons, we lose players at best every four years anyway. He's essentially the college girlfriend who just told you that it's time to date other people. It stings because you weren't ready to break up but after a while you realize you weren't going to marry this girl anyway. Then you spot a pretty, new girl across the room at Mug and Margarita dipping a ladle into a bucket of Stroh's. Time to move on and root for the kids that want to be here. 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