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Topic: RE: TOS to Buffalo

Topic: RE: TOS to Buffalo

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perimeterpost
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/21/2015 2:29:44 PM

This whole thing reeks of Hurley's involvement, or at the very least, influence. When Hurley bolted for ASU a local reporter claimed that "sources" (ie Bobby Hurley) told him that Hurley felt insulted by the AD's offer to make him the highest paid coach in the MAC by offering him $1K more than Saul Phillips. Claims Hurley took it as a sign that the AD only wanted to the bare minimum to make him happy and didn't really support him. Never mind the fact it was a raise from $250 to $551K. There were other petty accusations but the whole thing reeked of an arrogant and petulant Hurley throwing his former employer under the bus in a lame attempt to look like he's not really just an opportunist that's desperate to take the first train out of Dodge.

Now you've got Evans pulling the same stunt. He runs into the AD Monday morning and asks for a meeting and the AD says yeah, we'll schedule some time to sit down. Then almost immediately Evans goes on twitter and complains about the AD refusing to meet with him to discuss his future and how he doesn't feel appreciated. Same playbook. Then when the AD meets with him a few hours later he says he'll only consider coming back to UB if the AD proves he cares about him by releasing him and not restricting his ability to follow Hurley. The AD complies, but he also makes a statement that if Hurley was involved in this before the release then that would be an NCAA violation. He would not comment on whether or not tampering had occurred.

Update: within hours of being granted a release Evans has offers from Arizona State, Miami(FL) and Boston College.

http://zagsblog.com/articles/buffalo-transfer-shannon-eva.../

Last Edited: 4/21/2015 4:41:00 PM by perimeterpost

MY STATE. MY TEAM.

Mike Coleman
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/21/2015 11:48:26 PM

And there is all sorts of sleezy types involved we don't even know about. It's been going on a long time. To this day I love Gary Trent for what he turned down. They (Ed Martin and others) were all over him to leave Athens more than 20 years ago.

That's why I like the nba. People give it crap, but at least the business end is above board. Big time colleges are hypocrites. There is no amateurism, and I've seen the poaching go all the way down to five year olds at YMCA instructional leagues. I know a travel league coach who paid $600 for a second grader lol.

bobcatsquared
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/22/2015 6:27:19 AM

$600?

Better start working on my second-grade son's cross-over dribble and 3-point shot. Already far behind.

Mike Coleman
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/22/2015 7:11:59 AM

Yep. $250 Season fees, $30 uniform, plus $125 tourney fees and $100 hotel room....not to mention a pair of junior LeBrons.

The kid is great, but he's 8 ...8!...and not even halfway to a college campus.

I guess it's like having twins but only one is really your kid.

Last Edited: 4/22/2015 7:13:49 AM by Mike Coleman

bornacatfan
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/22/2015 7:48:38 AM

Mike Coleman wrote:

So ...what was the relationship to the kid and what was the child's financial situation? Interesting.

Where do you draw the line between sponsoring a kid who has little means to play and calling it an under the table transaction?

I guess it goes to intent vs compassion for those less fortunate. The shoes were the hinky part to me. Were those the shoes the team wore or was that part of the incentive? Fees, tourney entries, Uni are all part of the cost of the team that it takes for many teams to exist.

Question is who plays at this level and will it be limited to only the kids with parents who can afford it? I know in our situation we played Boy's Club in 4th and 5th grade and did not play travel ball till 6th as I thought it was silly to put that pressure on a kid for the benefit derived. Better comp at the Y, park and Boys club than the predominantly homogenous travel leagues that existed in the affluent Indy burbs. It is interesting and provides a conundrum in America that reaches down into Pop Warner football, Little league Baseball, travel hoops and calls into question out obsession with youth sports. Crazy.

never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

OUVan
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/22/2015 9:40:49 AM

Mike Coleman wrote:

That doesn't shock me at all. At that age one special kid can absolutely carry a team and all of a sudden your program is on the map. Then other good players will navigate to play with him. Then the coach gets his name out there. Seems like a pretty small investment for what it can bring. Of course, at some point some other coach will come along and try to poach the kid. It's all a big sleazy mess. The rampant cheating that goes on in travel ball is pretty disgusting.

Just was at an AAU District tournament this weekend and with the new age restrictions it's a different world than the last few years. I heard a number of parents in the crowd mention how small all the teams looked. No more 12 year olds playing against 10 year olds. Of course, that didn't last the whole tournament. They only make you check in the first day so the team my son's team played in the championship game brought in an older kid rolling the dice that no one would a) challenge it and b) have proof (and $100). Our coach and several of our players knew he was older but he told the kids to just go out and beat them anyway because it's not all about the winning. It's about getting better as a team and as a player and that they would be playing against bigger, older kids the rest of their lives. But all I could think about was how could a parent let their kid to that? Sad.

Mike Coleman
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/22/2015 11:30:36 AM

Van is correct. This is a coach who wants to turn a travel league gig into his own AAU gig. He seems like a super nice guy, and his kid is a great kid, and so is the star recruit, but it just shows the way things are done and how much money is being thrown around for youth sports...much less college sports. I'm just wondering if all this time spent in gyms as 8 year olds is really good for the young kids. I mean, if you ask this kid's dad, who is about 5-6, if his phenom plays any other sports, he looks at you as if you are freaking nuts, as in, "Can't you see how awesome my Steph Curry protege is, how could I ever let him throw a baseball?" And I've seen parents refuse to produce "lost" birth certificates required for club level soccer and will have their "all star" play only rec, and these are nine-year-old girls. Nine. Year. Old. Girls.

GoCats105
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/22/2015 12:31:55 PM

Mike Coleman wrote:

My grad school prof quit coaching youth sports because of this very stuff. He was also adamant about how kids playing only one sport increases their risk for injury because they keep using the same muscles, bones and ranges of motion over and over and over. Compare that to a 3-star athlete who does a different thing in every sport.

I recommend you guys read "Play Their Hearts Out" by George Dohrmann. Fascinating read about a youth basketball coach who has a star player who turns out to be just another guy once he gets to college.

OUVan
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/22/2015 12:31:59 PM

Mike Coleman wrote:

That is a topic that comes up constantly and one I continue to struggle with. When most of us were kids there were seasons where you played sports and that was that. You played baseball in the Spring, football in the Fall and basketball in the Winter. Now, if you are good enough (or more increasingly even if you're not) you play a sport year round.

There are a couple of big worries that I see in this development. One is physical. This is becoming a big topic in baseball because pitchers are pitching year round and they are throwing breaking balls at an earlier age. When I was growing up my Dad wouldn't let my brother or I throw a curve until we were 13. I see 8 year olds throwing them now. But it's not just baseball that's a worry. Are kids that play basketball year round going to have bum knees when they get to be 18? What are the long term effects? The other concern is that is there going to come a day when the kid that has been playing year round wakes up and never wants to touch a baseball or basketball again? My youngest plays basketball and swims year round. It leaves very little room for much else. He did play baseball for five years but just gave it up because he was missing too much practice and game time. He played soccer up through 2nd grade but gave that up for the same reason. He also wants to try flag football because many of his friends play it but squeezing it in is tough.

But he lives and breathes basketball and would be really, really, really unhappy if we told him he could only play during the winter. It doesn't matter what season it is, he crawls out of bed and picks up a basketball and dribbles it around the house (yes we allow it and even have a 6 foot hoop in the family room). And to be honest when I was a kid if I could have played baseball year round I would have been overjoyed. Just not sure what the right answer is.

clodney
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/22/2015 1:12:40 PM

perimeterpost wrote:

As a Buffalo fan, this post is pretty spot on.

bornacatfan
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/22/2015 1:44:21 PM

OUVan wrote:

It's all a big sleazy mess. The rampant cheating that goes on in travel ball is pretty disgusting.

...They only make you check in the first day so the team my son's team played in the championship game brought in an older kid rolling the dice that no one would a) challenge it and b) have proof (and $100). Our coach and several of our players knew he was older but he told the kids to just go out and beat them anyway because it's not all about the winning. \

Ha

reminds me of 7th grade nationals in Memphis where all 4 Indiana teams knew of OJ Mayo and D1 Greyhounds being older and saying something. We were told at the managers meeting that "unless you were in the delivery room and could prove he was not of age" you would forfeit your bond and probably not win an appeal. OJ went on with kids winning 'ships and getting recruited though he was older than Oden and teamies a year ahead of us. Got the notariety he wanted (I think playing vs younger kids and Ohio div 3 ball hurts his developement in the long run) and when the one and done rule was in his wheelhouse he came out in SLAM magazine along with teamie Bill Walker said they would be old enough to challenge the rule and maybe not have to do a year of college. I started doing the math and sent a letter to AAU National to show how many years they had shut folks down and documented the birthdates that they had denied for year.

Mike, I agree.... it is rampant in the younger grades and what I alluded to up top as to the differentiation between helping disadvantaged youth and building your own resume. Seen and heard story after story for a couple decades now. The money in hoops has every mom saying "mahhh baby gonna be the next miiichaael jawwdun" and dads showing out for anyone who will listen or worse coaching to try and put their boy in a great position....not for the love of the game and to pass knowledge on to the next gen. It is truly sad....and a growth industry unfortunately ...totally different in the US than youth/club sports overseas.

OUVan
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/22/2015 2:34:15 PM

We are focusing on the horror stories of youth sports in general and travel sports in particular but there is another side to the coin. If you find the right coach and right organization it can be very rewarding. It's hard to avoid playing the cheaters but so what. If your kid is getting good coaching in a positive environment and he or she is enjoying themselves then it's hard to argue. There are a lot of coaches and programs out there that are doing it for the right reason and doing it well.

C Money
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/22/2015 3:30:32 PM

bornacatfan wrote:

reminds me of 7th grade nationals in Memphis where all 4 Indiana teams knew of OJ Mayo and D1 Greyhounds being older and saying something. We were told at the managers meeting that "unless you were in the delivery room and could prove he was not of age" you would forfeit your bond and probably not win an appeal. OJ went on with kids winning 'ships and getting recruited though he was older than Oden and teamies a year ahead of us. Got the notariety he wanted (I think playing vs younger kids and Ohio div 3 ball hurts his developement in the long run) and when the one and done rule was in his wheelhouse he came out in SLAM magazine along with teamie Bill Walker said they would be old enough to challenge the rule and maybe not have to do a year of college. I started doing the math and sent a letter to AAU National to show how many years they had shut folks down and documented the birthdates that they had denied for year.

Interesting. I used to watch OJ Mayo play youth football when he was 9 or 10 years old. It really did feel like you were watching a man among boys. He was 6 inches taller than everyone else on the field, and was running QB sneaks for 65 yard TDs.

The league had a (supposedly) super strict birth certificate policy (you had to show the official government issued birth certificate before you were eligible to play), so it never even crossed my mind that maybe he really was older than all the other kids. Your story makes me think otherwise now.

Mike Coleman
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/22/2015 3:45:41 PM

OUVan wrote:

Very true. My personal experience has been overwhelmingly positive for me and my kids. And there are a ton of wonderful people out there that truly care about the kids. If some of these coaches want to make a buck or two, fine. There are plenty of head scratching stories I've come across, like the ones above, but nothing to hurt the overall experience and friendships I've made. (Youth football, soccer, wrestling, skiing, basketball and baseball so far).

bornacatfan
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/22/2015 5:50:23 PM

OUVan wrote:

I totally agree and have been insistent, at least here in INdiana, that is the case. Coach Gary Betts and Greg Cloyd were the 2 summer ball coaches that Tommy played for.....both remain very good friends and neither ever accepted a dime from outside sources or let their kids get compromised. College coaches hold both those guys in high regard and respect. Betts had Zach Randolph, Jason Gardner, Justin Cage, jeff and marquis teague and made sure all of them stayed on the straight and narrow.

You are so very right. The seamy side gets talked about while for each one hundreds of guys and gals do it the right way.

OUVan
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/23/2015 2:26:05 AM

It comes down to pretty much everything else that's important in life. What are your intentions? Are you doing this for your child or are you doing this for yourself? In far too many instances the parents are receiving validation through their child. I talk a lot on these boards about my youngest because basketball is his major interest and this is a basketball forum. My middle son is not athletic or competitive at all but he loves karate. I'll be honest, I don't derive the same enjoyment from watching him practice karate or my oldest, who is a swimmer, as I do watching my youngest practice basketball but that's just because I enjoy watching basketball more. But the joy is exactly the same watching all three enjoy what they are doing. Nothing is more rewarding than seeing your child enjoying themselves at whatever they do. And for you younger guys out there who don't have kids yet you won't fully understand what that means. My mom told me once that you love your kids so much it hurts and I didn't understand what she meant until I did have kids. The problem is that there are a lot of parents who determine that their kids athletic success is important. It's fun but not important. I might be wrong but I'm guessing that Tom takes a lot of pride in the fact that Tommy is a professional basketball player or Joe McKinley taking a lot or pride that David became a big part of some successful Ohio teams but I'd bet they are just as proud (maybe more) when Tommy or David say "Thank you" when a waitress gives him a glass of water or refills his iced tea or they hold the door for a stranger who is 10 steps away from the door.

I understand doing everything in your power to see that your child is successful in athletics. I just don't understand your child's success in athletics having anything to do with your self worth.

rpbobcat
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/23/2015 6:58:46 AM

OUVan wrote:

Mike Coleman wrote:

When I was in college I wrestled D1.
When the season ended we were told,except for an occasional clinic,to stay off the mat until the next season.

The coaches told un that they didn't want us getting burned out in the off season.

We were told to lift and run and encouraged to participate in a spring sport,either track or lacrosse.

I notice that a lot of "average" high school kids, who do one sport year round, including summers,are done by the end of high school and don't even try to continue in college.

OhioCatFan
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/23/2015 3:49:46 PM

OUVan wrote:

. . . I understand doing everything in your power to see that your child is successful in athletics. I just don't understand your child's success in athletics having anything to do with your self worth.

Boy, you hit a nerve here. When my kids were playing youth sports I saw way too much of this type of parent. It was as though these parents whole ego was wrapped up in their children's performance on the athletic field. I remember one game in which a very young third-base umpire was literally bullied by a parent to reverse a call -- from out to safe, I believe it was. This parent yelled at this kid-umpire (suspect he was a high school student, only a few years older than the players) with such total disrespect that it was literally nauseating. I don't remember too clearly what I did, but I was seated a far ways away from this altercation. In retrospect, I should have gone over and tried to protect the umpire from this "lady."

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

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clodney
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/24/2015 2:22:03 PM

Shannon Evans is transferring to ...you guessed it, Arizona State! Not only that, 2016 Buffalo commitment, Maurice O'Fields, is also reconsidering his options with a strong interest in ...you guessed it, Arizona State!

Bobby Hurley apparently decided that his first job as Arizona State head coach would be to recruit all of his former players from Buffalo. He's dead to us now and I personally hope he gets hit with an NCAA investigation.

Last Edited: 4/24/2015 2:22:27 PM by clodney

bn9
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/24/2015 2:31:50 PM

clodney wrote:

FINALLY, something a Buffalonaian and I can agree on.

Deciduous Forest Cat
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/24/2015 2:53:58 PM

clodney wrote:

You're practically a Bobcat now, clodney.

OUVan
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/24/2015 3:07:57 PM

Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:

You're practically a Bobcat now, clodney.

He's not far enough out on the court when he posts though.

Jeff McKinney
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/24/2015 3:26:23 PM

Look, I know this just completed season was godawful at Ohio, but this scenario at Buffalo further illustrates the advantages of Saul's way of building a long term program. I'd bet my house that when he leaves this kind of thing won't be happening.

I'd rather be patient and wait for the fruits of doing it the right way, than "enjoy" a short term, opportunistic fix.

Buffalo and BGSU finding this out the hard way. Even if Jans had stayed past this season, he wouldn't have been there long.

IMO, Saul's approach to program building is superior for the long term health of a mid major program than the get rich quick approach.

Pete Chouteau
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/24/2015 7:05:38 PM

I'm very interested in how ASU will fare in the Pac 12 with a team of MAC recruits. Shannon Evans was good... but there's a reason none of Ohio's commits went to BC.

BillyTheCat
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RE: TOS to Buffalo

Posted: 4/25/2015 1:05:11 PM

Pete Chouteau wrote:

I'm very interested in how ASU will fare in the Pac 12 with a team of MAC recruits. Shannon Evans was good... but there's a reason none of Ohio's commits went to BC.

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