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Topic:  Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps

Topic:  Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/13/2014 5:50:12 PM 
So, it's been a couple weeks. I didn't want to throw up an immediate reaction; instead, I wanted to let it sit for a little bit.

I was never fully in the Jim Christian camp. Part of it was because he succeeded John Groce. I freaking loved John Groce. He was just about my ideal basketball coach. He seemed like he was on the cutting edge. He is a numbers guy. He has passion. He's smart. His style of basketball is pleasing to me: Force turnovers, lots of hedging, bomb away on offense, keep the pace up. I was basketball heartbroken when he left.

Jim Christian seemed like the opposite. His teams weren't pretty. They played hard defense, but games were more about grinding and doing just enough to win. He spoke publicly against newer statistics. He did not seem like the kind of coach I would want to play for. So I was not excited for the future of Ohio basketball. I mentioned some of my misgivings from time to time; folks like Jeff McKinney would challenge them. People on this board and in private conversations talked a lot about how much they enjoyed this team. I did not share in that. There were certainly games I really liked watching and I was appreciative of the effort the men gave. However, I didn't really connect with them. But I didn't want to express just how little joy I took away from his teams, as I felt he was going to be in Athens for a long time and needed to accept that. I didn't want to be that publicly negative without benefit. I ended up being wrong and Jim's in Boston. Funny how life turns out.

Had Christian stayed, I think my fears about pace would have been realized. While Groce's teams never ended up playing as fast as promised (his teams were always outside the top 90 in pace), this last Ohio team clocked in at 67.6 possessions/40, 194th in the country. I would expect that to be typical of what Christian's Ohio teams, if not a little slower. Plus, his teams looked hapless in the halfcourt on offense way too often. He didn't recruit a point guard in two years. I won't miss that. I like toughness, but I also like skill. This last Bobcat team had to have extra toughness to make up for lack of skill (and injuries). Example: We were 223rd in turnover rate. This shouldn't surprise anyone.

Trying to think of a good way to characterize Christian, I came to this: He's a rich man's Steve Hawkins. Two MAC tournament titles, usually a factor in the regular season race, not the prettiest basketball, struggle in March, manage to deliver enough wins to keep people happy, able to bring in a really good player from time to time. But neither Hawkins nor Christian are "it" guys who raise the level of their programs. Christian largely maintained Kent's strength, but I don't think he really made them better. He did a good enough job in Athens preventing the program from falling off, but I don't think he really made it better, either. A lot of people are wondering what BC saw in him. I don't particularly care. I'm glad he's gone and I'm looking forward to the future for the first time since John Groce put on an orange tie.

So now we have Saul Phillipps. By all accounts, it's a great hire. It's pretty rare you can get a guy with a recent NCAA tournament win on his resume. He left North Dakota State better than when he took the job, which is no mean feat because they were pretty good to begin with. He obviously has the personality that will excite the fans. Recruiting is the big question. At Ohio, he'll have access to a higher caliber of player than he did in North Dakota. This can be a trap; you have to get the right players, not just the most talented or athletic. We'll see.

When it comes to style of play, I'm excited. He doesn't stick to just one plan; his teams in Fargo ranged from 91 to 334th in pace. But even the slower teams aren't boring. It's not like Rob Murphy's "dribble around for 28 seconds" offense. There's a lot going on. Lots of passing, lots of screens, lots of cuts. They're giving defenses multiple looks and trying to force switches and favorable matchups. It's intelligent basketball. These teams are going to know how to attack a zone, how to get a good shot. We may not have a ton of possessions, but the possessions will be interesting. Basketball for the fan who likes to see how plays develop. Positions are going to be kind of flexible; players will change responsibilities depending on the set. Studying under Bo Ryan and Tim Miles gives a person a lot to go on.

His Bison teams didn't force a lot of turnovers, but they held on to the ball pretty well. I like one of these things and not the other.

Many fans are concerned with how many openings we're going to have. I'm not sweating it, personally. At best, we're getting two of Crute/Owens/Morillo-Lajara/Wigginton. That's fine. Let's get Saul's guys in quicker and set this machine in motion that much earlier. Even if we are picking guys off the scrap heap this year, that's a lot of playing time we can promise to the next recruiting class. 2014-15 might be a step backward, but two steps forward will follow.

As I said, I'm excited for Ohio basketball. I think Saul Phillipps is going to do special things in Athens. I think the team is going to be a lot of fun to watch. Let's get it.


"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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bornacatfan
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Member Since: 8/3/2006
Post Count: 5,706

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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/13/2014 9:13:46 PM 
JSF wrote:
So, it's been a couple weeks. I didn't want to throw up an immediate reaction; instead, I wanted to let it sit for a little bit.

I was never fully in the Jim Christian camp. Part of it was because he succeeded John Groce. I freaking loved John Groce. He was just about my ideal basketball coach. He seemed like he was on the cutting edge. He is a numbers guy. He has passion. He's smart. His style of basketball is pleasing to me: Force turnovers, lots of hedging, bomb away on offense, keep the pace up. I was basketball heartbroken when he left.

Jim Christian seemed like the opposite. His teams weren't pretty. They played hard defense, but games were more about grinding and doing just enough to win. He spoke publicly against newer statistics. He did not seem like the kind of coach I would want to play for. So I was not excited for the future of Ohio basketball. I mentioned some of my misgivings from time to time; folks like Jeff McKinney would challenge them. People on this board and in private conversations talked a lot about how much they enjoyed this team. I did not share in that. There were certainly games I really liked watching and I was appreciative of the effort the men gave. However, I didn't really connect with them. But I didn't want to express just how little joy I took away from his teams, as I felt he was going to be in Athens for a long time and needed to accept that. I didn't want to be that publicly negative without benefit. I ended up being wrong and Jim's in Boston. Funny how life turns out.

Had Christian stayed, I think my fears about pace would have been realized. While Groce's teams never ended up playing as fast as promised (his teams were always outside the top 90 in pace), this last Ohio team clocked in at 67.6 possessions/40, 194th in the country. I would expect that to be typical of what Christian's Ohio teams, if not a little slower. Plus, his teams looked hapless in the halfcourt on offense way too often. He didn't recruit a point guard in two years. I won't miss that. I like toughness, but I also like skill. This last Bobcat team had to have extra toughness to make up for lack of skill (and injuries). Example: We were 223rd in turnover rate. This shouldn't surprise anyone.

Trying to think of a good way to characterize Christian, I came to this: He's a rich man's Steve Hawkins. Two MAC tournament titles, usually a factor in the regular season race, not the prettiest basketball, struggle in March, manage to deliver enough wins to keep people happy, able to bring in a really good player from time to time. But neither Hawkins nor Christian are "it" guys who raise the level of their programs. Christian largely maintained Kent's strength, but I don't think he really made them better. He did a good enough job in Athens preventing the program from falling off, but I don't think he really made it better, either. A lot of people are wondering what BC saw in him. I don't particularly care. I'm glad he's gone and I'm looking forward to the future for the first time since John Groce put on an orange tie.

So now we have Saul Phillipps. By all accounts, it's a great hire. It's pretty rare you can get a guy with a recent NCAA tournament win on his resume. He left North Dakota State better than when he took the job, which is no mean feat because they were pretty good to begin with. He obviously has the personality that will excite the fans. Recruiting is the big question. At Ohio, he'll have access to a higher caliber of player than he did in North Dakota. This can be a trap; you have to get the right players, not just the most talented or athletic. We'll see.

When it comes to style of play, I'm excited. He doesn't stick to just one plan; his teams in Fargo ranged from 91 to 334th in pace. But even the slower teams aren't boring. It's not like Rob Murphy's "dribble around for 28 seconds" offense. There's a lot going on. Lots of passing, lots of screens, lots of cuts. They're giving defenses multiple looks and trying to force switches and favorable matchups. It's intelligent basketball. These teams are going to know how to attack a zone, how to get a good shot. We may not have a ton of possessions, but the possessions will be interesting. Basketball for the fan who likes to see how plays develop. Positions are going to be kind of flexible; players will change responsibilities depending on the set. Studying under Bo Ryan and Tim Miles gives a person a lot to go on.

His Bison teams didn't force a lot of turnovers, but they held on to the ball pretty well. I like one of these things and not the other.

Many fans are concerned with how many openings we're going to have. I'm not sweating it, personally. At best, we're getting two of Crute/Owens/Morillo-Lajara/Wigginton. That's fine. Let's get Saul's guys in quicker and set this machine in motion that much earlier. Even if we are picking guys off the scrap heap this year, that's a lot of playing time we can promise to the next recruiting class. 2014-15 might be a step backward, but two steps forward will follow.

As I said, I'm excited for Ohio basketball. I think Saul Phillipps is going to do special things in Athens. I think the team is going to be a lot of fun to watch. Let's get it.





 truly your best post ever. I am amazed. Coherent, cogent, well spoken and thought out. Been ruminating on that one awhile methinks. Proud of you for putting it up there. Dragon has truly left the building. 





 

never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

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Kevin Finnegan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/13/2014 9:30:56 PM 
JSF wrote:
So now we have Saul Phillipps. By all accounts, it's a great hire. It's pretty rare you can get a guy with a recent NCAA tournament win on his resume. He left North Dakota State better than when he took the job, which is no mean feat because they were pretty good to begin with. He obviously has the personality that will excite the fans. Recruiting is the big question. At Ohio, he'll have access to a higher caliber of player than he did in North Dakota. This can be a trap; you have to get the right players, not just the most talented or athletic. We'll see.

As I said, I'm excited for Ohio basketball. I think Saul Phillipps is going to do special things in Athens. I think the team is going to be a lot of fun to watch. Let's get it.




so, I have to ask, why the two P's at the end of Phillips? It's in the title and throughout the writing, so I imagine it's deliberate. Does that have some significance?
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OhioStunter
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/13/2014 10:10:57 PM 
Seems like a couple weeks, but it has only been one?
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/13/2014 10:31:59 PM 
finnOhio wrote:
JSF wrote:
So now we have Saul Phillipps. By all accounts, it's a great hire. It's pretty rare you can get a guy with a recent NCAA tournament win on his resume. He left North Dakota State better than when he took the job, which is no mean feat because they were pretty good to begin with. He obviously has the personality that will excite the fans. Recruiting is the big question. At Ohio, he'll have access to a higher caliber of player than he did in North Dakota. This can be a trap; you have to get the right players, not just the most talented or athletic. We'll see.

As I said, I'm excited for Ohio basketball. I think Saul Phillipps is going to do special things in Athens. I think the team is going to be a lot of fun to watch. Let's get it.




so, I have to ask, why the two P's at the end of Phillips? It's in the title and throughout the writing, so I imagine it's deliberate. Does that have some significance?


Yes. I made a mistake. My apologies to Mr. Phillips.

"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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colobobcat66
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/13/2014 10:36:18 PM 
I enjoy a style of play that wins games, late in the year particularly.
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JSF
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/13/2014 10:43:10 PM 
colobobcat66 wrote:
I enjoy a style of play that wins games, late in the year particularly.


I forgot to talk about that. I thought Groce's style was one that gave them a puncher's chance against anyone. Nobody likes playing a disruptive team that can shoot and take the ball away.  The problem with Christian's style is bigger teams are simply going to do it better than you. You have to have an equalizer.

"Loyalty to a hometown or city is fleeting and interchangeable, but college is a stamp of identity."- Kyle Whelliston, One Beautiful Season.

My blog about depression and mental illness: https://bit.ly/3buGXH8

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bornacatfan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/13/2014 10:49:20 PM 

never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

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Chicken George
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/13/2014 11:30:15 PM 
JSF--you echo my sentiments very well and wrote it in such a way that I couldn't have communicated as clearly.  I was fine with JC, but just moderately.  Wouldn't complain, but then again, wasn't excited.  In fact, while I still came to as many games and cheered as loudly as I normally do, for some reason I wasn't quite into the teams as  I normally am.  Not sure if it was JC fault, or anyone's, just wasn't.  Always felt JC was a low-risk, safe, hire.  We were always going to be good/very good with JC, so that was a plus.  Probably were going to be consistent 18-22 game winner year-in-year out and you can't complain about that.  I just never felt break-out great years were ever going to be in the cards.  Think JC's resume kind of shows that. consistentl good/very good, but never great.

On the other hand, I consider Phillips a much higher risk hire, but at the same time, I think the ceiling is much higher.  Just an unknown.  Unlike JC, I think a 14-15 win season is not out of the question with Phillips along the line and I doubt that was the case with JC.  At the same time, I have a hunch a magical NCAA ride is more likely with Phillips for some reason.  Guess if you wanted to use an investment term, Phillips is going to be a much higher risk, volitale investment.  With Phillips I think you have the potential for much lower down years, but much higher great years.  I think you measure that with an investments Beta.  JC was like a solid Bond Fund, while Phillips will be like trading Gold or Tech Stocks.  Kind of just depends what you have the stomach for.  Think it's going to be much more of exciting ride and only time will tell if we wished we had chosen a higher weighted Bond portfolio.
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RSBobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/13/2014 11:40:52 PM 
Chicken George wrote:
 Think it's going to be much more of exciting ride and only time will tell if we wished we had chosen a higher weighted Bond portfolio.


Sounds like a contradiction there


 

RS Bobcat

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OUbobcat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/14/2014 4:09:16 AM 
JSF wrote:
colobobcat66 wrote:
I enjoy a style of play that wins games, late in the year particularly.


I forgot to talk about that. I thought Groce's style was one that gave them a puncher's chance against anyone. Nobody likes playing a disruptive team that can shoot and take the ball away.  The problem with Christian's style is bigger teams are simply going to do it better than you. You have to have an equalizer.


THIS

This is exactly why teams like Akron can win the MAC and go nowhere in the tourney.  We will get out rebounded, we will get outscored in the paint, we will deal with foul trouble against all of the power conference teams.  They are simply bigger and stronger.  It's the scrappy, relentless teams that can turn a tournament appearance into a Cinderella story.  I'm curious to see where Coach Phillips will take us in terms of recruiting.
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colobobcat66
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/14/2014 7:31:03 AM 
Chicken George wrote:
JSF--you echo my sentiments very well and wrote it in such a way that I couldn't have communicated as clearly. I was fine with JC, but just moderately. Wouldn't complain, but then again, wasn't excited. In fact, while I still came to as many games and cheered as loudly as I normally do, for some reason I wasn't quite into the teams as I normally am. Not sure if it was JC fault, or anyone's, just wasn't. Always felt JC was a low-risk, safe, hire. We were always going to be good/very good with JC, so that was a plus. Probably were going to be consistent 18-22 game winner year-in-year out and you can't complain about that. I just never felt break-out great years were ever going to be in the cards. Think JC's resume kind of shows that. consistentl good/very good, but never great.

On the other hand, I consider Phillips a much higher risk hire, but at the same time, I think the ceiling is much higher. Just an unknown. Unlike JC, I think a 14-15 win season is not out of the question with Phillips along the line and I doubt that was the case with JC. At the same time, I have a hunch a magical NCAA ride is more likely with Phillips for some reason. Guess if you wanted to use an investment term, Phillips is going to be a much higher risk, volitale investment. With Phillips I think you have the potential for much lower down years, but much higher great years. I think you measure that with an investments Beta. JC was like a solid Bond Fund, while Phillips will be like trading Gold or Tech Stocks. Kind of just depends what you have the stomach for. Think it's going to be much more of exciting ride and only time will tell if we wished we had chosen a higher weighted Bond portfolio.

Phillips was 11-18 in his third year at NDSU so, yes, he is capable of having a pretty bad year and I wouldn't doubt that happening in the next 2 years if we lose some more guys. It will take Saul some time to be known around here and that might hurt recruiting, but who knows.

We will never know what would have happened with JC in the next few years, but I will say, other than finding the right point guard, he seemed to somewhat raise the bar with recruiting. He got some good ones while he was here. 49-22 as a transition record should be "acceptable" and it was for me.

I'm not predicting how this will turn out in the long run, but right now I'm pretty excited.
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Mike Johnson
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/14/2014 8:23:33 AM 
JSF wrote:
So, it's been a couple weeks. I didn't want to throw up an immediate reaction; instead, I wanted to let it sit for a little bit.

I was never fully in the Jim Christian camp. Part of it was because he succeeded John Groce. I freaking loved John Groce. He was just about my ideal basketball coach. He seemed like he was on the cutting edge. He is a numbers guy. He has passion. He's smart. His style of basketball is pleasing to me: Force turnovers, lots of hedging, bomb away on offense, keep the pace up. I was basketball heartbroken when he left.

Jim Christian seemed like the opposite. His teams weren't pretty. They played hard defense, but games were more about grinding and doing just enough to win. He spoke publicly against newer statistics. He did not seem like the kind of coach I would want to play for. So I was not excited for the future of Ohio basketball. I mentioned some of my misgivings from time to time; folks like Jeff McKinney would challenge them. People on this board and in private conversations talked a lot about how much they enjoyed this team. I did not share in that. There were certainly games I really liked watching and I was appreciative of the effort the men gave. However, I didn't really connect with them. But I didn't want to express just how little joy I took away from his teams, as I felt he was going to be in Athens for a long time and needed to accept that. I didn't want to be that publicly negative without benefit. I ended up being wrong and Jim's in Boston. Funny how life turns out.

Had Christian stayed, I think my fears about pace would have been realized. While Groce's teams never ended up playing as fast as promised (his teams were always outside the top 90 in pace), this last Ohio team clocked in at 67.6 possessions/40, 194th in the country. I would expect that to be typical of what Christian's Ohio teams, if not a little slower. Plus, his teams looked hapless in the halfcourt on offense way too often. He didn't recruit a point guard in two years. I won't miss that. I like toughness, but I also like skill. This last Bobcat team had to have extra toughness to make up for lack of skill (and injuries). Example: We were 223rd in turnover rate. This shouldn't surprise anyone.

Trying to think of a good way to characterize Christian, I came to this: He's a rich man's Steve Hawkins. Two MAC tournament titles, usually a factor in the regular season race, not the prettiest basketball, struggle in March, manage to deliver enough wins to keep people happy, able to bring in a really good player from time to time. But neither Hawkins nor Christian are "it" guys who raise the level of their programs. Christian largely maintained Kent's strength, but I don't think he really made them better. He did a good enough job in Athens preventing the program from falling off, but I don't think he really made it better, either. A lot of people are wondering what BC saw in him. I don't particularly care. I'm glad he's gone and I'm looking forward to the future for the first time since John Groce put on an orange tie.

So now we have Saul Phillipps. By all accounts, it's a great hire. It's pretty rare you can get a guy with a recent NCAA tournament win on his resume. He left North Dakota State better than when he took the job, which is no mean feat because they were pretty good to begin with. He obviously has the personality that will excite the fans. Recruiting is the big question. At Ohio, he'll have access to a higher caliber of player than he did in North Dakota. This can be a trap; you have to get the right players, not just the most talented or athletic. We'll see.

When it comes to style of play, I'm excited. He doesn't stick to just one plan; his teams in Fargo ranged from 91 to 334th in pace. But even the slower teams aren't boring. It's not like Rob Murphy's "dribble around for 28 seconds" offense. There's a lot going on. Lots of passing, lots of screens, lots of cuts. They're giving defenses multiple looks and trying to force switches and favorable matchups. It's intelligent basketball. These teams are going to know how to attack a zone, how to get a good shot. We may not have a ton of possessions, but the possessions will be interesting. Basketball for the fan who likes to see how plays develop. Positions are going to be kind of flexible; players will change responsibilities depending on the set. Studying under Bo Ryan and Tim Miles gives a person a lot to go on.

His Bison teams didn't force a lot of turnovers, but they held on to the ball pretty well. I like one of these things and not the other.

Many fans are concerned with how many openings we're going to have. I'm not sweating it, personally. At best, we're getting two of Crute/Owens/Morillo-Lajara/Wigginton. That's fine. Let's get Saul's guys in quicker and set this machine in motion that much earlier. Even if we are picking guys off the scrap heap this year, that's a lot of playing time we can promise to the next recruiting class. 2014-15 might be a step backward, but two steps forward will follow.

As I said, I'm excited for Ohio basketball. I think Saul Phillipps is going to do special things in Athens. I think the team is going to be a lot of fun to watch. Let's get it.




Well stated.

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

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perimeterpost
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/14/2014 8:56:19 AM 
for me a microcosm of Christian's tenure was his 1-5 record vs Akron. Ohio only outscored Akron in the second half one time (1pt in the 2OT loss in Athens) and was outscored in the second half of the other five games by an average of 12pts. you just can't do that.

That and going 0-7 vs Memphis, UMass, Oklahoma, Belmont and Akron(x3) with the Sweet 16 roster. Groce would have found a way to get at least 1 upset win with that group in those 7 games. And the concerning part was that in most of the games the team looked to be unprepared in the 1st half and uninspired and confused in the 2nd half. I think Phillips would have found a way to get at least one win as well.

MY STATE. MY TEAM.
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bobcatsquared
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/14/2014 9:14:51 AM 
   No one knows in April, 2014, if the Christian for Phillips trade will turjn out positively for Ohio. My gut feeling has me excited for the future of Ohio basketball under Phillips.

    The worst part of JC leaving for BC, I have felt since the original announcement of him being interested, is the typical roster attrition, both from the current roster and from signed recruits. That still being a possibilty leads me to believe that Ohio might take a step backwards before taking two steps forward, as Dragon mentioned toward the end of his post.
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100%Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/14/2014 9:28:16 AM 
perimeterpost wrote:
for me a microcosm of Christian's tenure was his 1-5 record vs Akron. Ohio only outscored Akron in the second half one time (1pt in the 2OT loss in Athens) and was outscored in the second half of the other five games by an average of 12pts. you just can't do that.

That and going 0-7 vs Memphis, UMass, Oklahoma, Belmont and Akron(x3) with the Sweet 16 roster. Groce would have found a way to get at least 1 upset win with that group in those 7 games. And the concerning part was that in most of the games the team looked to be unprepared in the 1st half and uninspired and confused in the 2nd half. I think Phillips would have found a way to get at least one win as well.



Jiminey Crickets, the guy has been at Illinois for two years now.  Can we let go of the "Groce would have _____" talk?  It's speculative nonsense, at best.  Everyone remembers the NCAA wins, and don't get me wrong, they were amazing.  But most people seem to forget that he couldn't beat Robert Morris, struggled to win away from the Convo, and never seeded higher than third in the MAC tourney.  Sure, you can say "he would have won one of those games..." and he also would have lost at Eastern Michigan and Bowling Green.  I loved John Groce as a coach here, but let's not pretend he was without flaws.  He lost a lot of games with better talent than the opposition.  And last I checked, the folks over in Illini country are not all that thrilled with his product there right now.  He's gone, he ain't comin' back.  Let it/him go, move on. 

The broken record "Groce would have" talk that never dies is too much like Uncle Rico being certain his team would have won state if the coach had put him in...
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bornacatfan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/14/2014 9:41:03 AM 
yeah

I agree that the projections should stop.

Saul is here. JSF stated what many of us who supported the program because "he's our coach" thought but kept to ourselves for the greater good.

This should not turn into a thread bashing a coach or comparing what might have been as that is so much mental masturbation that does not get you anything but temporary satisfaction in lieu of lasting thoughts and emotional investment.

For those who had those thoughts that JC was a fix and held their breath for the last 2 years they should take this opportunity to share what was pent up without repercussion. For those who supported the coach and made their point. It has been heard over and over for 2 years and literally spoon fed. I admire JSF for holding his opinion to himself all that time. I admire him for putting it up there.

I would like for this not to turn into an argument and camps established but for those who kept silent to have a place to vent. If you are in the opposite opinion.....that is fine. We heard you for the last 2 years extoll the virutes and remained silent. Let the great unspoken finally speak. You really do not even have to open this thread knowing it is not in line with your thoughts.

let this be a thread of catharsis and not turn it into an argument where folks choose camps and make more like politics rather than a fanbase coming together with a common Saul


never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

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giacomo
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/14/2014 9:41:55 AM 
All the prognostication is very amusing.
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OhioCatFan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/14/2014 10:12:30 AM 
Chicken George wrote:
. . .  Guess if you wanted to use an investment term, Phillips is going to be a much higher risk, volitale investment.  With Phillips I think you have the potential for much lower down years, but much higher great years.  I think you measure that with an investments Beta.  JC was like a solid Bond Fund, while Phillips will be like trading Gold or Tech Stocks.  Kind of just depends what you have the stomach for.  Think it's going to be much more of exciting ride and only time will tell if we wished we had chosen a higher weighted Bond portfolio.

Very good analogy.  In my own investing I tend to be overweight a little in tech stocks and can be a little speculative at times.  Perhaps that's one reason I so quickly jumped on the Phillips bandwagon. 

 

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

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Monroe Slavin
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/14/2014 10:47:08 AM 
I definitely was forceful in stating that JG and the Sweet Sixteen was okay but would have been so much better if it was done in the style that I prefer.

Of would have been if you just asked me.







 

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perimeterpost
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/14/2014 11:02:04 AM 
I was trying to draw a line to the similarities of the new coach and a former coach, not living in the past. whatevs.

MY STATE. MY TEAM.
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Kevin Finnegan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/14/2014 11:24:33 AM 
JSF wrote:
finnOhio wrote:
JSF wrote:
So now we have Saul Phillipps. By all accounts, it's a great hire. It's pretty rare you can get a guy with a recent NCAA tournament win on his resume. He left North Dakota State better than when he took the job, which is no mean feat because they were pretty good to begin with. He obviously has the personality that will excite the fans. Recruiting is the big question. At Ohio, he'll have access to a higher caliber of player than he did in North Dakota. This can be a trap; you have to get the right players, not just the most talented or athletic. We'll see.

As I said, I'm excited for Ohio basketball. I think Saul Phillipps is going to do special things in Athens. I think the team is going to be a lot of fun to watch. Let's get it.




so, I have to ask, why the two P's at the end of Phillips? It's in the title and throughout the writing, so I imagine it's deliberate. Does that have some significance?


Yes. I made a mistake. My apologies to Mr. Phillips.


Honestly, I thought it was deliberate. The more I thought about it, I thought the 'PPS' at the end was your homage as a stat geek to his team finishing in the top 10 nationally in Points Per Shot last year. Maybe it was a subconscious thing.
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OhioStunter
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/14/2014 12:00:28 PM 
perimeterpost wrote:
for me a microcosm of Christian's tenure was his 1-5 record vs Akron. Ohio only outscored Akron in the second half one time (1pt in the 2OT loss in Athens) and was outscored in the second half of the other five games by an average of 12pts. you just can't do that.

That and going 0-7 vs Memphis, UMass, Oklahoma, Belmont and Akron(x3) with the Sweet 16 roster. Groce would have found a way to get at least 1 upset win with that group in those 7 games. And the concerning part was that in most of the games the team looked to be unprepared in the 1st half and uninspired and confused in the 2nd half. I think Phillips would have found a way to get at least one win as well.


JC's conference record was 24-4 (.857) otherwise without Akron games factored in. But he didn't beat the Zips when it counted.

 
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Jeff McKinney
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/14/2014 1:41:40 PM 
Well...bornacat has effectively shut down those of us who might have a disagreement or three with JSF.

But I will say just a few things...

*  Re:  comments that will affirm JSF's view:

Now that JC has moved on, and as time goes on whether the following is true will become more clear, but it appears that one possible weakness of the JC regime was a risky recruiting strategy.  A strategy that possibly  depended greatly on delegation to assistants.   A strategy that didn't sign enough guys from a regional recruiting base.  So when you have an asst leave for UT-Martin plus the head coach suddenly and unexpectedly leaving, and you combine that with a huge turnover of personnel with a lot of players graduating at once, it puts a program at risk of short term losing.  Like others have said, in college basketball today, the norm is for a new coach to lose most if not all of the signees from the previous regime.  That probability is compounded when recruits are coming to a school in large part because of ties to a particular assistant coach who recruited them, and also when the players are coming from far flung locations geographically.  Much easier to back out on a schollie at Ohio when you live over 1,000 miles away, rather than from Columbus, Cincinnati, Marion, IN, etc. 
If you're from Ohio's region, you at least still have the angle of your family being able to attend games, etc.

Having said that, I hope we are able to retain some of these commits.  Would just be nice to do that this late in the recruiting season.  I think Saul and his staff have the right kind of personalities to at least give us a respectable chance of making that happen.  OTOH, as JSF noted, if we don't retain them, at least that gives Saul the flexibility to bring in his kind of guys much quicker than expected. 

To see the "kind of guys" Saul likes, check out Tyler Braun.  Go to the NDSU website, basketball page, and check out the Feb. 8 edition of Coachs' Corner video cast.  Tyler only had Div. II offers and came to NDSU as a very late Spring signee from Oregon.  As a senior, he ends up Player of the Year in the Summit and is joining Nick Kellogg in Portsmouth.  Pretty impressive talent development.

Have to agree with JSF that, while JC did some really good things in recruiting, and brought in some good players, he never did succeed in bringing in a pure, top notch PG to complement Stevie.  Bean has shown he has ability to contribute and play very well at times in the rotation as a combo guard, but I don't think he's a pure PG. 

*  Areas where I may disagree with JSF (apologies to bornacat, but I'm keeping this short...)
  • JC showed the ability to develop talent and improve some players.  See N. Kellogg.
  • RE:  JC's supposed opposition to modern stats...I listened to every single coach's show during his regime in Athens, and on a few occasions I heard him make positive reference to things like Pomeroy, bbstate, etc., with their statistical analysis.  He talked about how the stats on the stat sheet don't always go to a deep enough level of analysis on things like offensive and defensive efficiency, rebounding, etc. 
  • Being against someone mainly because they just happened to replace someone you really liked in a role is not something I'd expect from someone as erudite as JSF.  This kind of thing happens all the time with principals, band directors, coaches, church staffers, etc.  People will not let go of the previous office holder and they hold it against the new office holder. 
I think bornacat is right that we don't want to turn this thread into sniping and hard debate, but on here we usually benefit from the exchange of ideas even if we don't agree.  I think JSF's post was a very good one, and I appreciate him taking the time to do it and putting his honest thoughts out there.  He may be a "young" guy but he's invested a lot of time in absorbing really good info and data about the MAC and college hoops in general, so I do learn a lot from him.  I appreciated his online MAC rankings the past few years until he stopped doing that this year. 
.




Last Edited: 4/14/2014 1:51:05 PM by Jeff McKinney
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bornacatfan
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  Message Not Read  RE: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
   Posted: 4/14/2014 3:12:21 PM 
Apologies Jeff

I did not want to shut it down...just wanted to avoid a long hashed out thread of comparisons and folks drawing lines when the focus should be on what is going forward.

I opened the link to the Coach's Corner this weekend and you were right. It is certainly worth listening to.

never argue with idiots, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Winter comes and asks how you spent your summer.....

The game loves and rewards those who love and reward the game

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